You really need to learn to be concise. As I said my goal is to reach some sort of consensus here as to some semblence of dribble volume. There is obviously room for interpretation for "in possession" which does not necessarily imply having consecutive touches (ex: ball could be near player in possession and yet no touch yet performed). In any case, as I have told you, it is obvious that there is great interrater heterogeneity even within the opta organization. Which is why I've provided ranges. I will use Messi videos as a benchmark and try to provide timestamps moving forward.
As I said, I am trying to be as conservative as possible. So there may actually be situations which are habitually counted as dribbles by opta, which I have discounted 1-2 dribbles. 1:58 (probable), 5:57 3 to 5 dribbles. 1:56 (2), 3:21 (possible), 5:22, 5:51 (probable) 4 to 5 dribbles. 3:28 (2), 6:52, 7:12 (likely 2) 1 to 3 dribbles. 1:58 (possible), 2:37 (possible), 5:55
Dribbles past an opponent and retains possession Something along those lines Zidanes Euro 2000 dribbling numbers were most likely not actually representative of his actual level 38% of his total dribbles(24) came in one single match 90% - Zinedine Zidane completed 9 of the 10 dribbles he attempted vs. Portugal in the EURO 2000 semi-final. Magician. http://t.co/I96O9qu2— OptaJean (@OptaJean) June 2, 2012 and clips from that single match are replayed twice or thrice on his 5-10 minute career highlight reel compilations on YouTube I think you would be hard pressed to find examples of zidane completing more than 5 opta defined dribbles in a single match except for 3 matches ajax 1996/97 Portugal 2000 Brazil 2006 never ever in Serie A but someone here can prove me wrong mostly with zidane it was fancy ball retention The occasional step over and the occasional roulette zidane the dribbling monster never existed barring a handful of matches(and maybe on FIFA/PS5 too)
Or here for more examples 50% of his total dribbles in World Cup 2006 came in one single match(vs Brazil) 7/14 https://www.sofascore.com/player/zinedine-zidane/4735#tab:matches 50% of his total dribbles in World Cup 1998 came in one single match(vs Italy) 5/10 https://www.sofascore.com/player/zinedine-zidane/4735#tab:matches
Care to look at the posts above? Opta is a lot of nonsense. I am not sure he has as much as 7 dribbles vs brazil
I have watched some of the dribbles (some of them going backwards in direction), and I personally believe that you have interpreted dribbles differently from how OPTA (to be more precise, WhoScored) seems to count them. They seem to be even more conservative with their definitions, even though they do not seem to state all the necessary conditions explicitly. I personally check for WhoScored, and since their dribble statistics are what we are using to compare and contrast dribble volume (for players such as Lionel Messi at least), it only makes sense to comply with their standards if you wish to contrast dribble volume with Lionel Messi. Grealish dribbles well but backwards (youtube.com) A successful escape from opponent's press with a sideways or backwards dribble, as Jack Grealish frequently does, often do not register as a successful dribble as far as I understood it. I also think running barely past a player to create enough of a cross angle does not always get credited with a successful dribble. I think it is fine to tally Zinedine Zidane's actions by your own consistent criteria, because I too feel like Zinedine Zidane was amazing at beating the press. I can totally understand how his tallies would be through the roof if these sorts of actions all counted as successful dribbles. Just like how I think it makes sense for David Ginola is credited with having 291 dribbles in a single EPL season, as long as there is the added explanation that OPTA used to include progressive runs as dribbles also. Without such explanation, people can and will get massively disoriented with the numbers since they are more used to more conservative figures regarding successful dribbles. The confusion was created because I thought you were asserting Zinedine Zidane was performing over 200 dribbles in a single domestic season strictly through how WhoScored tallies those actions.
0:18 2 dribbles completed 2:42 2 dribbles completed 4:15 1 dribble completed 4:44 1 dribble completed 5:13 1 dribble completed
I was using Opta's definition. My understanding is Whoscored simply regurgitates what the stat provider... provides. Am I incorrect? For the record, this is why I have provided probability ranges for the dribbles - with a qualititative description of the likelihood that they may fit the criteria - this is to provide a confidence interval as well as invite feedback from you guys. I have yet to validate the technique, but I have started and will continue to tabulate Messi matches. I think this will help reach both clarity as to how dribbles are usually triaged... though as I suspect, and you will see, there will be great heterogeneity.
I think every backward dribble was sorted as a (possible) hence the range. I think credit should be given that I am being as transparent and fair.
If the sombrero on Ronaldo counts as an opta dribble which is a first touch action and does not move the ball vertically, I think the opposition to certain "dribbles" in my calculations has to be revisited.
Again, I think we have a clear philosophical divide here. I do not put any particular stock in a value that is clearly imprecise as you seem to. I am not sure 180 or 200 dribbles is representative of a real world difference. There is a confidence interval that will be decently wide with this sort of exercise and for the sake of football discussions, this should be recognized.
Clearly incorrect based on video footage. Additionally, there is stsrk difference between a defensive, non-possession oriented NT Vs the best clubs on the planet playing mid table, weak clubs etc.
I use WhoScored (who get their data from OPTA) statistics for three reasons: 1) Consistency: OPTA data is the best we have in terms of reliability and consistency. It is just factually true that OPTA data tends to be more consistent and more aligned, than tallies done by footballing enthusiasts with limited time and resources. Of course, human errors and inconsistencies are always going to exist, even for OPTA statistics. Just because I spotted an error from OPTA does not mean I have superior options elsewhere in terms of statistical data. 2) Availability: I can cross reference the data with the games I've watched by pinpointing the actions that are registered on WhoScored, to the timestamps I find on various sites. This means I can double-check the data, notice tendencies, and try to reverse-engineer how they define specific terminologies. 3) Sample size: I can get a general feel for how they collect and tally data due to the sheer volume and scope of their data, in a relatively short span of time if I invest the energy. I cannot say the same for individual footballing enthusiasts. For example, it took me many days to get the slightest insight into how you personally perceive and tally dribbles. ---------------------------------------------------------- Now, with that being said, OPTA's definition for successful dribbles definitely seems to have changed over the years (some changes massively influential in the resulting tallying numbers, others less so). I also agree that there are some inconsistencies within OPTA data-set that you can prove by cross-referencing WhoScored data with YouTube clips, but they are not as significant within the past ten years or so. Some of the earlier data for players like David Ginola and Harry Kewell were definitely not aligned with how OPTA seems to tally dribbles today. Progressive-carrying definitely massively inflates your successful dribble numbers, that is beyond questioning. There seems to be general rules that are more consistent than others, especially in terms of the direction of the dribbles, and distinguishing progressive-carries with the ball (as in just accelerating past a defender who makes zero attempts to steal the ball to then cross/shoot/pass), from actual take-ons. Now, I cannot say with any certainty that these rules are set in stone, but I did notice a significant trend after trying to reverse-engineer WhoScored definitions for success dribbles. So I personally would distinguish progressive carries, and press-avoidance towards the wrong direction, from successful dribbles, if I were personally trying to emulate a OPTA successful dribble tally for a past player. Otherwise we would just get figures that tally something else entirely. It does not mean any other tallies do not offer insight into Zinedine Zidane as a player, since beating the press was one of Zinedine Zidane's finest attributes, and many of those kind of actions would not count as a successful dribble by how WhoScored/OPTA tallies successful dribbles. However, while your tallies would provide extra insight into the player, they would cause more confusion than insight for how Zinedine Zidane's OPTA-definition dribble volume compares with Lionel Messi's OPTA-definition dribble volume, unless you have full insight into how OPTA tallies dribbles, and have matched their methods as close as humanly possible. I personally wouldn't dare attempting such a task, because differentiating progressive-carries, successful pressure avoidances, and successful dribbles within a reasonable margin of error, and then exposing the precise level of OPTA's inconsistencies regarding those definitions across time, then adding insight into what would have been the correct answer across all scenarios, would require years of careful meticulous work.
In case you were wondering, yes, I think OPTA-definition dribbles are specifically more complementary for a player of Lionel Messi's profile. I literally think it is logically impossible for a player like Zinedine Zidane to dribble more than Lionel Messi by how OPTA labels those actions. It is possible for players with acceleration and pace like Kylian Mbappe to have superior progressive carries numbers, and it is perhaps possible for players of Marco Verratti's profile to have superior press-resistance related statistics, so a figure that sort of combines all these ideas may result in different conclusions, but I personally find it extremely difficult to perceive of a season where Zinedine Zidane bests Lionel Messi in terms of specifically successful take-ons for a single domestic season. That was the reason for my initial confusion.
Neymar vs Atletico Madrid Home HD 1080i 21 09 2016 - YouTube Barcelona 1-1 Atletico Madrid - LaLiga 2016/2017 - Live Statistics (whoscored.com) The above link is a game where Neymar registered zero successful dribbles according to WhoScored. I think this is a good game as a reference point, since it has a variety of dribble attempts that ends in fouls, successful tackles, progressive-carrying without evasion of a tackle, and tackle-evasion in a backwards motion. I will list some examples below. Neymar vs Atletico Madrid Home HD 1080i 21 09 2016 (youtube.com) I personally think there might have been evasion of a tackle attempt in a backwards motion, but no dribbles are counted. Neymar vs Atletico Madrid Home HD 1080i 21 09 2016 (youtube.com) I personally recognize Neymar's evasion of a tackle attempt, but no dribbles are counted. I think it is because he gets immediately tackled afterwards by another defender, but maybe it is due to the sideways movement. Neymar vs Atletico Madrid Home HD 1080i 21 09 2016 (youtube.com) Neymar moves backwards with the ball, and before he passes the ball, might have had a failed tackle attempt made on him. No dribbles are counted during this entire sequence. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, I personally do not think OPTA has this down to an exact science, but it seems quite evident that the phrase conservative cannot be used to describe the current tallying for Zinedine Zidane's dribbles if OPTA criteria dribbles are the expected standard. I personally would use the phrase conservative estimate of OPTA dribble, to describe the tallying of actions that were forward-facing take-ons that evaded a tackle attempt of some kind. Progressive-carrying with no clear tackle attempts, backwards-facing tackle evasions, take-ons that get disrupted mid-way and end up as a tackle/foul/knocked out-of-play, and pressure evasions that involved no actual tackle attempts may be dribbles, but I've seen countless occasions of such type of actions fail to get counted as dribbles by WhoScored (who uses OPTA data), so any tallying that includes these types of dribbles cannot be described as a conservative OPTA-definition dribble count, in my personal opinion.
Thank you for going through these examples - this is what I am looking for: that we can come to some reasonable estimate of the usual definitions of a dribble, and apply them to a sequence of matches, such that we can come to an agreeable estimate of dribbling volume for Zidane. I think this is a feasible task. Personally, however, I do think you severely underestimate the degree of heterogeneity of Opta's classifications - the 2nd Messi match I linked, I identified 3 dribbles, whereas Opta counted 6. It is not as clear cut, I think, as you previously assumed. I think it will be clearer as I move forward with this experiment.
If you gave me a random clip, and asked me if OPTA tallied the action as a dribble, I personally wouldn't like my odds of having more than 50% guess-rate, if that. There must be finer details beyond what they claim is their definition for a successful dribble, including, but not limited to: 1) Are tackle-attempts from the opponent an absolutely neccessary requirement for a successful dribble? If so, what precisely is an definition for a tackle-attempt? Without precise definitions, a lot of progressive-carries, and evasions of pressures could get included into the tally. 2) Does the direction of the evasion for the tackle-attempts matter? If so, what exactly are the angular specifications for a backwards-facing evasion, sideways-facing evasion, and a forward-facing evasion? 3) What sort of actions need to follow an otherwise successful dribble, for it to be registered as such? A successful dribble followed by a foul seems to count as a foul-drawn, not a dribble. What about balls knocked out of play? What about a successful dribble that evades an unsuccessful tackle, followed by a successful tackle from another player? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All these factors play a massive role in deciding the OPTA-definition dribble count. For example, Wyscout, another statistics-providing service, must have different specifications for all these contributing factors that result in massively different successful dribble counts. It simply is not a matter of finding a reasonable sounding number, because every type of tallying results in reasonable numbers for those specific sets of definitions. We have not even decided on the specifics. So how can we arrive with a reasonable conclusion, having next-to-zero consensus on what constitues a dribble? None of us here, seem to have clear insights into how OPTA refined their exact definition for a successful dribble across the years. All we know is that they are not error-free, and can be inconsistent. However, that does not mean a less conservative, and broader tallying can be used to predict how OPTA would have tallied the dribble count. Wyscout Teams of the Season 2022/23 • Hudl Blog Vinicius Junior having 451 dribbles (attempts or successful, I do not know) in a single domestic season is a reasonable number, with how Wyscout defines dribbles. If you had zero information of how OPTA tallied his dribbles, how would you extract a reasonable OPTA-definition dribble count based on 451 dribble tally alone? I would find such a task impossible. What are we supposed to extract from a larger number, if we do not know the exact cut-off line?
I do agree, though I believe - as I will demonstrate or discover - that the definition of a dribble is simply not as protocolized with OPTA as we would like to see or hope. It is not simply a question of varying definitions or interpretations over a long period of time - but a problem of inter-rater variability owing to the hetereogeneity of what a dribble action can be interpreted as... or is interpreted as by OPTA. What I had proposed is a very reasonable remedy, if the goal is to somewhat analytically CHARACTERISE the volume of dribbling a player such as Zidane performed - and in doing so in a manner that allows a relative interpretation as compared to other players: 1) Provide numbers with a confidence interval. This way, the lower end of the interval would represent the strictest possible definition of a dribble (would exclude backward dribbles, rapid loss of possession, loss out of bounds - all of which, for the record, I excluded from the first number I have provided in the visualized matches). After doing it for a few matches, and running it by the members here, we (and I) can conclude on the consistency of the approach. 2) Analyze a sufficient number of modern performances and provide dribble numbers using the same interpretive lens A PRIORI, then compare with published numbers... this should give both a better sens of how Opta broadly applied their definitions, as well as demonstrate that there is a reason to believe that they are probably very loose and not precise. On another note, I would appreciate the courteousness of replying to me on Twitter as I do realize you are poster X (omitted for your confidentiality), and that I have taken significant time to provide you with data you requested.
If you truly see no value in trying to reach a common protocol, there is no reason collect data that has no rhyme or reason. Unless that is what you aim to prove, that everybody is full of shit. In which case, I would respond, yes, to varying degrees of delusion based on personal biases and general lack of understanding. So nothing that we don't know already. I think I'm no longer of use for this discussion. You can continue your project if you wish. I do not know which Twitter ID you have contacted, but it seems odd to contact a person based on profiling his posting tendencies elsewhere. I didn't ignore you on Twitter, so the person you are contacting probably is confused right now.
Strange breakdown. You are claiming the opposite of what I proposed. In fact, I suggested that we as community do work to a common protocol. That was clearly laid out. The angry tirade was unwarranted, but I am now certaina s to why. I don't know what I said that could have gotten you so angry, though I know for a fact that what I said about twitter is correct.
Another poor take bites the dust: Zidane vs Croatia Euro 2004 There is just a paucity of data to obviously refute you categorically.
I think you’re surely right that Zidane had other matches with more than 5 OPTA dribbles—since that’s not exactly a crazy high number for just one match—but this actually is not an example of such a match. That graphic says he had 5 dribbles in that match (which obviously is not “more than 5”). The number 6 there is for attempted dribbles, while the successful dribbles are in parentheses.
The point is this is a biased sample (NT matches against high quality opponents). Obviously, they are not representative of his club career where he would have faced easier opposition more routinely. The point is producing 5 dribbles is not some complete anomaly. So obviously, at club level you would expect more. I think you are missing the point since 4, 5, 6 are completely arbitrary numbers and cutoffs.