Come on, man. You made a silly mistake of reading carlito's words as "5 or more" instead of "more than 5" dribbles and now you are trying to rationalize it away rather than admiting one silly mistake. It is stuff like these that are annoying and produce all the confusion and drama.
No I read it. My point is to show that high volume dribbling matches is not an anomoly of a single tournament. I have no idea why the conversation is being bogged down by this. The point of the post is the challenge the implausability of his statement. If you have evidence of multiple games across a time frame of high dribbling, it stands to reason that the statement across a career doesn't make sense
As logical as this may sound I feel that in the unique case of zidane this may not be necessarily true zidane does indeed have a handful of confirmed high volume dribbling performances vs top tier opposition But zidane is also the player who was notoriously inconsistent when he faced lower level/mid table teams in domestic league football This is also objectively true and pretty much irrefutable https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/zinedine-zidane-review-1996-2006.2006080/ the seasonal ratings and match ratings of zidane in his prime all emphatically point towards this direction Serie A 1996/97 Serie A 1997/98 Serie A 1998/99 Serie A 1999/00 Serie A 2000/01 La liga 2001/02 la liga 2002/03 la liga 2003/04 la liga 2004/05 la liga 2005/06 In 10 seasons in Italy/Spain Zidane is only twice to be found amongst the top 20 highest rated players Never in the top 5 I looked at the seasonal ratings for all of these players Lionel Messi(La liga) Cristiano Ronaldo(PL,La liga,Serie A) diego maradona(Serie A) Michel platini(Serie A) Thierry Henry(PL) Ronaldinho gaucho(La liga) Kevin de bruyne(PL) Neymar Jr(La liga & ligue 1) Luis Suarez(PL & La liga) Xavi Hernandez(La liga) Andres iniesta(La liga) Kylian Mbappe(ligue 1) why was zidane the only and I mean the only player who’s reputation as a consistent world class performer never corroborated by the journalists paid to watch football matches for a living? is it possible that journalists can overlook someone in a season or two or even three? Maybe but this is 10(or 8 out of 10) riquelme(Argentinan)playing for Villarreal made the top 3 highest rated players in La liga 2004/05 zico(Brazilian)playing for udinese was the highest rated player in Serie A 1983/84 nihat kavechi(Turkish)playing for Real Sociedad was the highest rated player in La liga 2002/03 Roberto baggio(Italian) playing for Brescia was the highest rated player in Serie A 2000/01 juninho(Brazilian) playing for Middlesbrough was the 4th highest rated player in the 1996/97 PL That is the exact Middlesbrough who were relegated from the 1996/97 PL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996–97_FA_Premier_League There is no anti zidane or anti French or anti Madrid agenda by Dbs calcio if you are consistently great you will be(more often than not) recognised as such Whether you play for a successful team or not it makes no difference That my friend is the bottom line And zidane was absolutely not consistently world class He wasn’t consistent by the standards of his own era and he definitely was not consistent by the standards of modern day top tier footballers who cannot have a bad run of form lasting even three games without running the risk of Twitter going into complete meltdown. Sadly you will just hang onto those FIFA world player of the year awards for the rest of your life it seems. I told you along time ago that you’re completely wasting your efforts and time eulogising the wrong player if you enjoy wasting time as I may have done in the past putting all your eggs in one basket the Madridista you should be making the case for is none other than cristiano Ronaldo he has a lot going for him and very little going against him. with zidane you are just desperately trying to put lipstick on a pig hoping he will end up looking like the second coming of diego maradona. I have nothing(personally) against zidane and when he could turn it on he was a joy to watch(without ever to my recollection being truly unplayable) And I definitely don’t have anything personal or otherwise against you but you are just here wasting your precious time on a player not really worth it. that’s my take
Three points, and I will keep it brief: Nothing in your post has anything to do with dribble volume. A higher numerical dribbling volume does not make you a better player, nor does it necessarily correlate or indicate a better performance. It is an indication of playstyle. Nothing you have brought forward even addresses the point at hand, nor refutes it. Secondly, discussing with somebody that somehow thinks Zidane is not even a world class player is an exercise is folly and an automatic disqualifier. Thirdly, you are being disingenuous, because in terms of media or other consensus individual awards, Zidane has them to the moon and back, and you will struggle invariably to explain them away, unless your intent is less than honest.
I do think it’s worth noting that we just got OPTA dribbles data for 9 more Zidane matches—from Euro 2004 and Euro 1996. And he had 2.0 dribbles per match in both those campaigns. I know the response will be that those weren’t necessarily at his absolute dribbling peak (and another response could/should be that it’s a small sample size), but please note that that anonymous Twitter user had Zidane putting up 5.39 dribbles per game in the season just after Euro 1996 (which is the second highest season that Twitter user had for Zidane). Overall, we now have 26 games of OPTA dribbles data for Zidane, and he has 67 dribbles in those games. That’s 2.58 dribbles per match (and it’s 2.48 dribbles per 90 mins). And even just in games in the years where that Twitter user gave year-by-year data, we are looking at 16 games with 45 dribbles—which is 2.81 dribbles per match (and 2.67 dribbles per 90 mins). For reference, we also have 26 games of OPTA dribbles data for Messi at the WC, and he has 125 dribbles in those games. That’s 4.81 dribbles per match (and it’s 4.86 dribbles per 90 mins). Which is broadly consistent with (but slightly above) Messi’s 4.33 dribbles per match at European club level from 2009-2010 through 2022-2023, as per WhoScored.
You answered your own points adequately, I don't see the need to respond. Zidane was woeful in 1996 Euro due to a car accident and injury. He is old and unfit for Euro 2004.
Don't you think Zidane's case could be similar to Ronaldo Fenômeno's, where he never averaged over 1.9 dribbles per game at world cup but that's not representative of his club career?
It’s possible it’s not fully representative (after all, it’s not a massive sample!), but we do have a larger sample of data at this point for Zidane than for R9–not to mention that the games in that data set include some of his career’s most prominent dribbling performances, which is definitely not the case for R9 (meaning it would seem a lot less likely to meaningfully undersell things in this regard). Also, I think it is extremely unlikely that R9 put up the kind of dribble numbers that were being asserted for Zidane—it’s not like R9 is an example where WC data is not very high but we have club data that is actually as high as the type of club numbers being asserted for Zidane. (FWIW, this is just a total guess from me of course, since we don’t have OPTA data on this, but my guess is that R9 wasn’t ever really putting up more than around 2.5 to 3.0 OPTA dribbles per game at club level). More generally, the question you raise here is basically just an application of the idea that there’s noise in relatively small samples. I wouldn’t say that a 26-game sample is definitive proof of what stats someone put up overall in their career, but it’s certainly evidence that can make us have a pretty solid degree of certainty about the type of range someone was in. It’s not definitive proof by itself because relatively small samples can occasionally be very unrepresentative. But it’s evidence that should add to our certainty here, because the chances of a 26-game sample being that far off is low.
You are wholly unfamiliar with his career and speak with too much confidence.Besides the portugal game, none of his nt matches represent his peak dribbling volume and besides euro 2004, he played in low posession systems
🔥 Zidane in Euro+WC 🔥🏟️26 Games⚽️10 Goals (0,38)🅰️3 Assists (0,12)📊13 G/A (0,50)🗝️72 Key Passes (2,77)🪄 96 Succ. Dribbles (3,69)⚔️171 Duels Won (6,58)🤕56 Fouls Received (2,15)🔥 7,50 Avg Match Rating📈 10 MOTM (38%)🌟 2 MVP (WC 06, Euro 00)🐐🇫🇷 pic.twitter.com/G6ykJ77IV8— ZZ10 (@Zined1sm0) April 26, 2024
Again, these dribbles numbers are not correct—or at least are highly misleading/confusing because they are not OPTA-criteria dribbles. We actually have OPTA counts for all the games this is referring to, and Zidane has 2.58 dribbles per match in those matches (67 dribbles in 26 matches).
EVERY. SINGLE. TOUCH By XAVI vs. Chile🏆🇪🇸2010 World Cup. By Minute 30, he had exactly 3 successful passes and Spain was leading 1-0.Here is his entire 1st half masterclass. 🏆 pic.twitter.com/VcPvqoBOO3— Kylian's Kompany (@someballfacts) October 30, 2023 3 successful passes by minute 30. Must have been a record. And the team was leading 1-0 in spite of such a disasterclass. One of the worst performances by a high profile midfielder I have seen
This is just dumb. Since you’ve recently watched the match in order to make a compilation, you should know exactly what happened there. At the beginning of the game, Chile was actually pressing Spain’s back line really effectively, which was forcing Spain’s defenders to make a lot of clearances and long balls and to just generally sit back pretty far and play very high tempo. Xavi was not playing in the areas directly in front of the defenders (in the formation they were running, that was both Busquets and Alonso), so it was not his role to provide an outlet for the defenders to help stop this. Instead, Xavi spent the vast majority of this portion of the game playing as the furthest forward midfielder for Spain, and actually was making lots of runs for final balls in the central areas of the pitch. This was necessary because Villa and Torres were having to create a lot of the width on the frontline (since Iniesta was not going forward much and the fullbacks were not pushing forward a lot either), meaning someone needed to plug into that central zone on the front line, and Xavi was spending a lot of that time period filling that gap and making runs. Basically, Spain actually played something akin to high-tempo counterattacking football in that timeframe (which worked well, by the way, since it’s ultimately how they got that first goal), and Xavi was positioned pretty far up the pitch and often even on the front line. Given these tactical realities, obviously Xavi was not making tons of passes in that time period. Of course, Spain’s tactics and Xavi’s role changed as the game went on, and by the end of the game, Xavi had made 85 successful passes—by far the most of any of Spain’s midfielders (and more than Chile’s entire midfield combined). It’s also worth noting that, in those first 30 minutes, the best chance Spain got (leaving aside the actual goal) was off a great indirect free kick from Xavi.
3 successful passes, not 3 attempted passes. He just lost the ball many many times through technical errors and such. And yes, you're right, Xavi was deloyed as an AM - as he was for many if not most matches at WC2010. Your analysis is also correct - after the goal - Xavi dropped deep and spammed sideways/backward passes - ie. Sterile defensive possession. 30min with what you can watch in the video is a disasterclass and reinforces that he wasn't that central or great offensively in 2010. The footage just reveals a TECHNICAL disasterclass - constant miscontrols, poor passes when he doesn't have 4min on the ball.
I went back and watched the entire first 30 minutes, and that’s really just not a fair characterization at all. Because of how Spain was playing tactically in that portion of the game and the role Xavi was playing in that portion of the game, he barely got service of the ball in that timeframe, and when he did he was generally needing to try really high-tempo plays, like one-touch flicks forward in situations when his team wasn’t getting forward much and was therefore outnumbered in the areas in front of him that he was flicking to. Those sorts of plays are speculative, but that’s what the tactics were demanding. One of those flicks worked (and it’s good it did, since it was part of the general sequence of events leading up to Spain’s goal), while a couple others didn’t (and if not always succeeding on stuff like that is a “disasterclass” then Zidane had quite a lot of disasterclasses, as does like every midfielder). Other than that, there was one bad headed pass, and one maybe-miscontrol-maybe-fouled sequence where Spain essentially instantly got the ball back anyways. And there was another play that you might try to label a miscontrol but where really the pass to Xavi was a little errant and a Chile player got to it first. That’s it. What really happened is that Xavi’s service and role in that part of the game was more like a quasi-forward than a midfielder, and he played speculative plays commensurate with that, and also had one bad headed pass. And meanwhile, he made a beautiful free kick from very deep that created easily the best chance Spain had in that timeframe (leaving the goal itself aside). He also made some good off-ball front-line runs that could’ve created danger if the service had been better. Meanwhile, once his role on the pitch and the tactics Spain was playing went back closer to normal, suddenly Xavi ended the game with 85 completed passes and a high pass success rate. You’re trying to make something out of nothing, thinking that others won’t actually watch what you’re talking about and have the wherewithal to understand how you’re being misleading. Of course, it’s sort of inherently obvious you’re making a mountain out of a molehill, when you’re specifically trying to focus on one-third of one game. As we all know, Zidane had a lot of games where he was actually genuinely bad the whole time (indeed, I’ve posted video of some such games years ago in this thread).
A whole lot of wringing and justification. I watched the entire world cup. Every minute of Xavi playing, I have painstakingly recorded. He played in advanced role as an AM. No world class midfielder under any circumstances should produce this display irrespective of the tactics and, even worse, when playing for the team of the 21st century. Spain scored IN SPITE of Xavi's iasterclass. Of course, Xavi spammed sideways passes AFTER the goal to play defensive KEEP a way. Did Zidane have bad games? Of course. What player hasn't. I don't see your point. This is mainly a discussion about Xavi's relative technical limitaions / deficiencies and to conclude with video evidence my observations of his WC which you severely mischaracterized (for example, the chances created - he created 0 big chances, majority are from spamming corners/set pieces or 40m layoffs to xabi alonso and villa). I've done a breakdown of every match. Don't you worry. We are not talking just the Chile game. Edit: No, Zidane does not have a "disasterclass" or many of the sort in WC setting. What a disingenuous statement !
A Study of Xavi and air balls: 🧐🧐Xavi struggles when the ball is not on the ground. Here is pretty much every air ball he dealt with in World Cup 2010: pic.twitter.com/svXGookgqG— Kylian's Kompany (@someballfacts) March 4, 2024 This represents around 95% of all situations Xavi had to resolve when the ball is in the air, so it is not a fail comp but a total sample. To my surprise, it illustrated how uncomfortable and technically deficient he is when not receiving the ball squarely on the ground. Obviously, like any player, Xavi ptobably has examples of some good controls peppered in his career, but there is a severe lack of regularity here. This is part of a series to illustrate properly the player.
You are watching Xavi through an overly-scrutinizing lens for obvious reasons. By no means losing possessions equates to a disasterclass. I should probably not even engage in this discussion because you are throwing baits once again with a controversial and over the board statements to get attention. Anyhow, here you go, have attention. Btw, per sofascore, Xavi lost possession 16 times against Chile. For comparison, Zidane vs Brazil 2006 lost 14 times... just to make the context blatantly clear to anyone who is reading. You conveniently ignore that one of those 3 successful passes is a great cross that creates a great chance, which is already a pretty big deal and non.ignorable fact for a 30 minutes football. The rest goes back to you just calling whatever Xavi does as sideways and backwards passes. You don't have a grasp of value such actions bring to the table.
5% or less. Like there is a tiny chance I missed one or two. There was no selectin bias. Truly. I clearly included successful controls.