Greatest French Player , Michel Platini or Zinedine Zidane?

For clarification for those not following Trachta's thread, those French league assists for Platini are estimations taken from the Serie A era and NT ones basically. Anyone that can help further with finding sources for actual French club assists for Platini would be helping @Trachta10 out, to further clarify Platini's overall assist data!

Anyway, like I say not to divert but I think it's possible to calculate Van Basten's 91/92 Serie A assists like I did for Platini's 83/84 ones so I'll make a start on that (and keep track of pre-assists too, although the first assist will be in the first game and by today's rules, if judging by Bruno Fernandes being awarded a goal last night for example, that would be another goal for Van Basten himself probably as it was deflected in by the defender and deemed an own goal, so assist fits best probably and would be consistent with how I did it for Platini IIRC)....

EDIT - Corrected the above statement as I'd originally said pre-assist, but thinking about it more the Platini pre-assists on own goals would have been passes to someone who shot IIRC, and this is more like counting a Maradona free-kick shot as an assist when it rebounded in off a defender (IIRC there was a case or two of that and that's how I did count it).

 

Van Basten 91/92 Serie A assists then....

Ascoli away (own goal)
Bari home (Massaro)
Sampdoria away x 2 (Gullit x 2)
Napoli home x 2 (Rijkaard, Donadoni)
Roma away (Simone)
Sampdoria home (Rijkaard)
Napoli away (Rijkaard)
Foggia away x 2 (Gullit, Simone)

So that's 11 and matches what Transfermarkt has (which helped with the Napoli one to Donadoni also, prompting a look at the full game footage rather than highlights)
Marco van Basten - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt

It's hard to be sure but maybe the one to Rijkaard at home to Sampdoria is a bit inadvertent, but on the other hand there is a deliberate dummy, leaving Maldini's cross/assist for Massaro's goal vs Lazio so that might kind of cancel out for 11 assists whether it's based on actual touches or last contribution to goals.

I think there is one pre-assist (meaning a similar number of overall assist contributions as it turns out then as Platini in 83/84), though the footage was very blurry (it is for the eventual own goal at Cremonese). There could be others or other assists once or twice where the footage is brief potentially (but Transfermarkt doesn't show more assists anyway), so I think though there were some other chances created and near misses shown on highlights, just the one pre-assist could be correct or very close to it anyway.

 

As PDG1978 just wrote, I think the relatively low gpg ratio of Van Basten or later Ronaldo in Serie A is largely explained by the defensive nature of that league back then. Platini had it probably easier than Van Basten and co. who had to struggle against strong backlines whereas he could roam between the lines.
It's not a coincidence that Platini was outscored by pure strikers in the defensely loose French league in the 70's- early 80's.

Now I don't think the qualities of a player are entirely connected to his position on the pitch. See Messi for example. Imagine him moving down on the field so that his 'average' position in his carreer was similar to Platini's (he certainly had the ability to do so) - his gpg ratio would naturally be lower. But would you say his goalscoring ability would actually be inferior ? I don't think so. I think the same applies to Platini, but in the reverse order - playing slightly higher would have allowed him to score more goals because he would have had more chances (EC84 is the perfect evidence of it), but his goalscoring ability would have been the same. So no, it's not only a matter of numbers... which btw are in Platini's favour considering what I've just wrote : the figure of 500 goals seem OK to me but it applies to strikers... the expected number for a midfielder would naturally be lower.

Lastly I think you make a mistake by comparing Platini to players who were mostly restricted to one position or one role (Zidane, Bozcic, Scholes, Modric, Deco, Xavi). You miss the fundamentally hybrid nature of Platini's game. Playing like Scholes, Xavi or Zidane would make such stratospheric gpg ratios impossible to reach indeed... but the key thing is that he didn't play like them, or better said playing like them was only a part of his game. In the same way I would be wrong if I said Platini played like Messi... but I would not be completely wrong either, as it's quite obvious both have some stuff in common.

 

I think that number of 4 assists is suspiciously low
Maybe you dont have access to all of his games?

'Grup14' have done in depth statistical breakdowns of players like Diego maradona,Eusebio,Pele,Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel messi

Here they say in 224 matches for juventus Michel platini assisted 100 goals
https://grup14.com/article/how-johan-cruyff-influenced-juventus.html

Grup calculate assists using strict(opta)criteria so the true number (including rebounds,deflections and penalties is probably higher as this)


It is very easy to infer from this data that Platini absolutely did not assist only 4 goals in Serie A 1983/84

elite playmakers do generally accumulate quite a few pre assists
Still it is almost without precedent that an advanced playmaker pre assists at a higher rate than he directly assists

Maybe guys like paul scholes(with low assist totals) did but he was not advanced during his peak

The likelihood is your data for Platinis assists are incomplete and on face value knowing what we already know of Michel platini it sounds highly improbable that it was only 4 assists(unless his striking options like boniek or rossi were atrociously bad which i haven't seen any one make the case for as of yet)


Secondly
Striker assists(involving awareness in and around the box and providing simple lay off passes)should be awarded a different weightage then playmaker assists
There are not the same and should not be treated as such

Its a very easy case to make that not only did Michel platini 83/84 score at a higher non penalty goal rate as peak van basten (91/92) but his goals were also more technically difficult
Way Less reliant on penalties(9 vs 3)
More variety(from out the box and initiating team moves leading to goals or pre assisted goals if you will)

If you notice
Over 60-70% of van bastens goals in Serie A 1991/92 were either a penalty or the goalkeeper wasn't even between the sticks so all he had to do was tapin into a empty net

If you think that 60-70% mark is exaggerated
Review the footage
Even i was surprised

Van basten(his peak)was probably in 1986/87 or 1985/86 even though its difficult to gague how strong those defences were
The flair was there and so was the diverse repertoire of finishing
Maybe 87/88 could've been it aswell had he not been injury hit(some indications of this from his great form in Euro 88)

After this during 1989-1992 im not so impressed
I don't agree he was of the same ilk of Eusebio or not even R9 during his short window as a phenomenon

The rate at which they created their own goalscoring opportunities was in an entirely different dimension as this(injury riddled) version of van basten

he is closer to looking like a overglorified Robert lewandowski(2nd greatest scorer in bundesliga history soon to break gerd mullers legendary single season record-so hes not so bad)

That's just my impression but its not set in stone

With regards to platini
Im still undecided as to how good finisher he really was
The conversion rate in Euro 1984(28 shots)is taken from a sample size of matches WAY too small(5)

Outscoring peak van basten on per 90 basis in Serie A is obviously great but not as great as @babaorum would probably want to believe
Especially if there is grounds to believe van basten(his open play goalscoring form)was patchy alot of the time in Serie A


Tangents aside
platini>Zidane in finishing without a doubt
Open and shut case

I would say though( as leadleader would put it)
Zidanes combination "of underrated athleticism" (clear to see at Euro 2000 where he covers great ground in relatively short periods of time)
His ball retention, manipulation and his close control dribbling are more than a match for Platinis superior finishing qualities

There is no right/Wrong answer here in truth (between zidane vs platini) and that is the beauty of comparing elite level professional players who have reached the summit of the game

 

Yeah, the assist number is reliable for 83/84 I think Carlito. You can see the goals from each game yourself by typing in 'Juventus Milan 83/84', 'Juventus Roma 83/84' etc etc as a Youtube search.

But as the table indicated he was assisting at a higher rate in other competitions on a per game basis I suppose that season, and IIRC in other seasons he did have more direct assist than pre-assists in Serie A (just not that particular one).

 

That looks like a decent article about Cruyff and Platini, but I don't know where he got 100 Juventus assists from (though it could be the Juve fan Twitter account that Trachta had noticed too himself as I think he may have posted a tweet with a similar or identical number).

As far as Serie A assists go anyway, the table of Trachta should be accurate, as shown above (any missing ones won't be from Serie A in other words for his Juventus years, but absent of a breakdown of those claimed 100 assists I'm struggling to see how the overall figure is close to that really despite IIRC a reasonably significant, if not huge, number of goals not available on video from Coppa Italia for example or even early European Cup rounds, that could be adding to the verified number somewhat).

 

It is possible that version of Platini's table is not the latest one now I think about it though (not sure off the top of my head), or the one that tallies completely with what I found.

Anyway all versions and also my own posts about Platini's assist numbers at Juventus are on Trachta's goal contributions thread
Goal contribution of the best players | BigSoccer Forum

 

Platini had 0.94 goals+assists per 90 for juventus in an era where that statistic shouldn't even be possible

ATG level player for sure

 

That's the source I referred to I think, and I have big doubts about that assist number to be honest (while Maradona's could be too low IIRC), but don't disagree with the ATG level player conclusion in any case. One of those posts does give a season by season breakdown though, if not game by game, so maybe it helps work out where the extra ones might be and if they are genuine pre-assists (taking a wide view of assists, more than OPTA for example, but then only for Platini and not for Maradona?) and/or full assists from goals we can't find on Youtube for example (but to be close to 100 in total, the % of those missing ones he assisted would be huge IIRC or at least way above his average from the ones we can verify) rather than phantom (made up) assists.

I think we have to be careful with what is posted on Twitter, Stats bomb etc etc. Some posts claimed that Zidane had close to no CL assists I remember (based on Stats bomb or similar I guess) whereas his rate of assists in that competition is actually very good on a per game basis.

EDIT - Just to add to what babaorum was saying - I guess the blanket defences of Serie A (concentrating on blocking the attackers and marking them closely and harshly) did on the other hand make it a bit harder for Platini and his ilk to register a big amount of assists, not only because of the overall GPG but because compared to a more open style of play and/or one where more midfield pressing occurs, there will be less spaces to play the ball into and less free attackers to play it through to too. Obviously he still got some with through passes, as well as some ingenious flicks and lofted short range passes over defenders heads etc.

 

Although having said what I said before....this game may be one I'd not included before it seems (I'm not sure why exactly although in general I guess I couldn't find anything for most Italian cup games that season - I double checked this game when I saw one of the assists on the video Carlito posted earlier)....and he may indeed get all the assists in the game I think (one a rebound assist that OPTA wouldn't include probably though) by the looks of it!
Juventus - Palermo 6-0 - Coppa Italia 1984-85 - 7° Girone - I Giornata - YouTube

If it was the same for every 'missing' game then maybe the 100 assists would be closer than I thought lol (but IIRC it would pretty much need to be the same - that pretty much all missing assists in all games were by him). I'd still think it's suspect surely (by OPTA standards, omitting pre-assists and the wider use of the term assist) but anyway that game's assists can probably be added into @Trachta10's calculations if I did indeed not take account of it before (by the looks of what I can find of my posts on his thread I think I didn't).

I did see I think one Vignola assist with a left footed free-kick on the Platini video, maybe mistakenly put in because he was wearing number 10. I've not looked through the whole video but did put it on and saw these things anyway.

 

I don't think he took the corner actually, but although it's not 100% clear he assisted goal number 6 it does very much seem like him to me, so that'd be 4 clear (OPTA standard) assists out of 6 goals in that game.

I can do better than I had done before for Coppa Italia games that season overall too, as this video does show most of them at the start from the group phase:
Juventus 1984 1985 goals - YouTube
And there is this video for the Cagliari game (if it's not on the one above a bit later on which I didn't check yet):
Cagliari - Juventus 0-3 - Coppa Italia 1984-85 - 7° Girone - II Giornata - YouTube
So out of the 11 goals not in that 6-0 vs Palermo with his 4 assists, I make it that he scored 3 including a penalty, and he assisted one of the goals vs Cagliari. He didn't get an assist for the missing goal vs Atalanta because he'd been subbed off (that's good info for Trachta I guess if it's not on Transfermarkt EDIT - It is though anyway):
Coppa Italia 1984/85: Atalanta-Juventus 2-2 02/09/1984 (myjuve.it)

Later in the competition he gets another assist vs Campobasso, as well as his final Coppa Italia goal (2nd and 1st goal respectively on the video):
Juventus - Campobasso 4-1 - Coppa Italia 1984-85 - ottavi di finale - ritorno - YouTube
Juventus don't score any goals vs Milan I don't think (even if English wikipedia has a 1-1 score in one game - I think it must be 0-1). Platini didn't play in that game anyway it seems, and he came off vs Campobasso but only after the 4th Juventus goal.

So it seems like he got 4 goals (including a penalty) and 6 clean assists from the 21 goals of Juventus in that years Coppa Italia (while he was on the pitch for 20 of the goals).

This significantly adds to Platini's assists total I suppose, and increases his Juventus assists rate as a percentage of Juventus goals possibly IIRC (as well as per game obviously), since he assisted 6 of the 16 Juventus goals he didn't score while he was on the pitch which is 37.5%. He scored or assisted 9 of the 19 non-penalty goals himself (47.4%), and scored the penalty to make it 50% including penalties of goals he was on the pitch for.

Conversely though it does add more confirmed goals he didn't assist (so less chance to make up the numbers to 100...despite the Palermo game making it seem less impossible), so unless I made some mistake I think 100 clean assists actually seems less likely now than before.

Maybe I'll copy this or part of it into @Trachta10's thread. It will add slightly to his 1984/85 assist tally over and above the estimate (from non Coppa Italia goals plus an estimated quota of those based on the rate he was assisting goals he didn't score in other games) I think won't it. Apologies for overlooking that I could have included these games before anyway!

 

Maybe your theory about platini in saint ettiene being already in his prime is unfounded and just your perception

When you say he was outscored by pure strikers you mean guys like Carlos bianchi and delio onnis(with proven track records elsewhere)?


What about Hector yazalde 1975/76?

He scored more goals in the Portuguese primera division 1973/74 than Eusebio(or peyroteo) ever did

In 1975/76 he joined Marseille and was outscored by Michel Platini in ligue 1

Maybe Carlos bianchi was underrated(he was devastating in Argentina and france)
To say he is a better finisher(not player) as van basten or R9 is difficult but not blasphemy



Platini playing in roughly the same era as Marco van basten scored at a higher non penalty goal rate in his peak Serie A campaign(1983/84 vs 1991/92)
More open play league goals and a superior strike rate per 90

In the European championship(1984 vs 1988)
More open play goals and a superior goal rate per 90

world cup
More open play goals and a superior goal rate per 90

national team comparison
a superior strike rate per 90 and more open play goals

Van basten intl record
24 goals in 4812 minutes
0.54 goals per 90


Platini intl record
41 goals in 6294 minutes
0.58 goals per 90

Open play intl goals

Van basten
22 open play goals in 4812 minutes
0.41 non penalty goals per 90

Michel Platini
37 non penalty goals in 6294 minutes
0.52 open play goals per 90



They are semi contemporaries and its not a case of luck either
Luck doesn't find its way being replicated in 3 different formats/competitions for both club and country

Im not dragging Pele from the 1960s and comparing him to vincius
Platini/MVB are at least cross generational player's

Peak Platini was likely a greater scorer than van basten(post Ajax) but that within itself doesn't necessitate that he is one of the all time great scorers

Just maybe that van basten 89-92 was overrated in the same way Eusebio was overrated after 1967/68 in the same way many other players had segments of their careers that were completely overblown

 

Probably. Henry's five consecutive years (01/02 to 05/06) levels are still unmatched for a player in the EPL, except some never-reproduced-again-for seasons like 13/14 Suarez and 17/18 Salah.

Still Benzema is head-to-head with Cristiano Ronaldo since 18/19 season, both as the focal points of their teams:

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...=dea698d9&p2yrfrom=2018-2019&p2yrto=2020-2021

Similar on-off, role and very similar numbers in the European Competitions and Serie A:

But Juventus was the higher scoring team, even if Real Madrid is still rated higher as a team:
http://clubelo.com/
http://elofootball.com/index.php

Three seasons sample:

Cristiano Ronaldo at Juventus: 0.76 non-PK per 90 (Juventus scored at the rate of 1.974 gpg in the matches Cristiano played) = 38.50% Goal Contribution

Benzema at Real Madrid: 0.79 non-PK per 90 (Real Madrid scored at the rate of 1.794 gpg in the matches Benzema played) = 44% Goal Contribution

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Guess Platini had more non-PK/Assists Goal Contribution per 90 in Serie A and European Competitions between 1982/1983 and 1984/1985 with a more complete role? (somewhat similar to De Bruyne's or Fernandes role nowadays?)

Out of curiosity:

Cristiano Ronaldo at Manchester United (last three seasons): 0.75 non-PK per 90 (United scored at rate of 1.987 in the matches Cristiano played) = 37.77% Goal Contribution (with more game involvement if compared with Juventus CR7 and Benzema as he was a elite ball carrier)

I think a better comparison to Platini's role, numbers and influence would be Bruno Fernandes and Kevin De Bruyne nowadays tho, even if Platini was superior in terms of productivity and more goalscoring oriented when the case.

Overall I think Platini was better than Zidane and a TOP10 all-timer very probably.

 

To curiosity De Bruyne and Bruno Fernandes are on 0.73 and 0.64 non-PK goals and assists per 90 and 30-31% goal contribution for City and United. They are elite CAM/SS of nowadays.

Then you can argue complete forwards like Neymar and Messi are on better numbers and participation (they are elite ball progressors too and had a free role).

Neymar at PSG is on 1.04 per 90 npkg/a and 37% goal contribution and Messi is surely on more than that.
But also they are a better dribblers and ball carriers which gives a new dimension compared to Platini (all those are elite passers too).

 

This was the later table of Trachta for Platini

So that's 0.8 or so per 90, and 40%+ goal contribution, but based on his Juventus and France games only really (with estimations for French football based on % of assists on goals he didn't score)

And obviously I just added 4 assists to 1984/85, and 1 to 1985/86 too (as stated on Trachta's thread a few minutes ago, again based on identifying more Coppa Italia goals), to make it 11 and 12 for those seasons after today's updating.

This is the non-penalty version but still estimated for Platini (at still 40%+, though down a bit per 90 before my new-found assists of today and any knock-on effect on estimates for France anyway)

 

Yes I mainly thought about Onnis and Bianchi. My point is simply that good strikers would naturally hit sky-high figures in the relatively weak (defensively speaking) late 70's - early 80's French league (something that was probably not possible to achieve in Serie A even for strikers of supposedly higher caliber), generally making hard for goalscoring midfielders like Platini to match their records... But Platini obviously scored a lot in the French league (0.54 gpg with Nancy and 0.56 gpg with Saint-Etienne) and he didn't improve in that particular area of the game later in Italy... in fact his ratio dropped a bit in Serie A (0.46 gpg), quite logically given how good the Italian League was defensively speaking.
I maintain that Platini reached his physical and technical peak in Saint-Etienne. That's something he said several times. Now he improved tactically in Italy. No doubt about that.

 

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCvgyoz9C-bFVUg3p8glHZsw/videos
Nice channel for zidane match comps with all his touches

 

Unfortunately, L'Equipe and France football don't have their archives online.

I think Platini really had six high level seasons in France, in which he showed a remarkable level of consistency : 75/76 - 76/77 - 77/78 and then 79/80 - 80/81 - 81/82.
His 79/80 season was shortened by a severe ankle injury.

Zidane had three/four high level seasons in France, all of them with Bordeaux : maybe 1992/93, and certainly 1993/94, 1994/96 and 1995/96.
The latter (1995/96) is undoubtedly his best, perhaps the only one comparable to Platini's best seasons : he had great stats that year, scoring more than usual and above all reaching his highest goal-assist figure (22).

So, if you ask me who was better during their time in France, my answer would be Platini due to a greater longevity and consistency.

 

Why are match ratings even required for something so self evident and how is Platini in France only better due to longevity?


Zidanes highest ballon dor position in ligue 1 was 33rd place (in 1995/96)

His most telling contribution was the wonder goal to make it 3-0 in the UEFA cup round of 16 playing against a real betis side that finished 8th place in la liga



In the Milan performance he was arguably overshadowed by Dugarry and Lizarazu
Even if on paper this was a spectacular Milan team in reality it really just wasnt



Milan were on a slippery slope since with disastrous league finishes in 1996/97 and 1997/98 this combined with humiliations in the CL by Gothenburg and the like

That's the extent of zidanes career pre juventus move



Platini finished 3rd place ballon dor in 1977

5th place in 1979

3rd place in 1980

4th place in 1981

Etc

It is very arguable that zidanes entire league career(in France,Italy and Spain) could just about be on par with Michel platinis career in ligue 1

If the comparison is confined to Just france theres legitimately no comparison to be made

The mid 1990s(specifically 95 and 96) was a weak transitional era like 1977-79

Difference is platini was able to stand out in this relatively weak period whilst Zidane was like a nobody before Euro 1996

 

If this chart is to be believed


then between 1975/76 and 1981/82 playing for Nancy and saint ettiene

Michel platini recorded
175 goals+81 assists in 25698 minutes(285 matches)




0.61 goals per 90
0.28 goals per 90

Zidane during his whole career(sometimes playing as further afield as false 9 for Juventus under lippi or as a attacking midfielder under under Boro Primorac) wasn't even half this good

95 league goals+125 assists in 525 games
0.18 goals per 90
0.23 goals per 90

I couldn't be bothered to look for minutes but the picture i can assure you doesn't change that much either way

Jack walker chairman of premiership club blackburn rovers said in the mid 90s when his club was linked to zizou
"Why do we need zidane when we have tim Sherwood"

That was the extent of his worldwide repute before he really made a name for himself in the latter half of the decade

We can only be sure that Zidane was at a top 20 all time level for a period of 18 months give or take

Euro 2000+Serie A 2000/01

What happens before and after is just gold dust sprinkled upon valleys of mediocrity

His peak/window as a ATG was probably comparable to arjen robben WC 14+bundesliga 2014/15

https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...obben-Continuing-Bayern-Development-Under-Pep
Maybe less but definitely not more

After this comparisons at club level to Michel platini become fanciful

 

Some magazines about Platiní, if anyone is interested

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6c2xPUDZNZWhrTm8/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6YzhHOFV4RFpSUm8/edit
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6T04tcWZadzZ5Qms/edit
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6NTBMWXdXODR5OUU/edit
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6Ym9oMHcyazlMRVE/edit
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6TEFDcGxBQlp1RFU/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6Z2hhbXdNdHJ3R1k/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6OXQ5ZkhEQzlvOUE/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6UkhZVDJkeWtjUWM/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6c0FPOFZidHFfMmM/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6UHBYSG5QalNpakk/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6dG5tekN6ZHBlZlE/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6X1JuYlp5VGdPX2s/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6R0QtY2ZCNy1PNXc/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwL4ev1QI1K6Z28zM1I2M0VoWEk/view


if only I could have access to this incredible magazine and newspaper library,
I would surely find all the assists of Platini

 

@babaorum

I read somewhere that Platini "cannibalized" every striker he played with. I think that's true.

I have heard many times over that Michel Platini significantly nullified Paolo Rossi, but looking at the actual data, I do not see much truth in that statement; I was interested in looking at the data, because after watching the few available Juventus games of that era, what tends to happen is that Paolo Rossi fails to score most of the clear cut chances that he gets, which is why he scores less goals than Michel Platini; Platini is very efficient with his chances, where Rossi is not.

Competitive margin games i.e. any games won or not won by less than three goals.

Blowout win games i.e. any games won by at least a three goal advantage.



Paolo Rossi 1977/78:

14 goals / 7 PK goals / 28 competitive margin games.

3 goals / 2 blowout win games.

Paolo Rossi 1978/79:

12 goals / 1 PK goal / 27 competitive margin games.

1 goal / 1 PK goal / 1 blowout win game.

Paolo Rossi 1979/80:

10 goals / 3 PK goals / 28 competitive margin games.

Not one single blowout win game enjoyed by Paolo Rossi.



Michel Platini 1982/83:

12 goals / 1 PK goal / 25 competitive margin games.

5 goals / 5 blowout win games.

Paolo Rossi 1982/83:

2 goals / 1 PK goal / 19 competitive margin games.

3 goals / 1 PK goal / 4 blowout win games.



Michel Platini 1983/84:

15 goals / 2 PK goals / 26 competitive margin games.

2 goals / 1 PK goal / 2 blowout win games.

Paolo Rossi 1983/84:

9 goals / 1 PK goals / 28 competitive margin games.

3 goals / 2 blowout win games.



Michel Platini 1984/85:

9 goals / 3 PK goals / 27 competitive margin games.

5 goals / 1 PK goal / 3 blowout win games.

Paolo Rossi 1984/85:

3 goals / 25 competitive margin games.

0 goals / 2 blowout win games.



Paolo Rossi 1985/86:

2 goals / 20 competitive margin games.

Not one single blowout win enjoyed by Paolo Rossi.



Paolo Rossi 1978 - 1986:

14 goals / 28 competitive margin games / 1977-78.

12 goals / 27 competitive margin games / 1978-79.

10 goals / 28 competitive margin games / 1979-80.

0 games played in 1980-81.

3 games played in 1981-82.

2 goals / 19 competitive margin games / 1982-83.

9 goals / 28 competitive margin games / 1983-84.

3 goals / 25 competitive margin games / 1984-85.

2 goals / 20 competitive margin games / 1985-86.

Paolo Rossi all the while being allegedly 'cannibalized' by Michel Platini; Paolo Rossi in reality actually replicated his best scoring form in 1983/84, at the same exact time as Platini actually scored his highest goal scoring total in the Serie A; this should not have happened...

Why would Paolo Rossi's highest scoring season with Juventus, happen at the same exact time as Michel Platini's highest scoring season with Juventus?

I mean, that should not have happened, if there is sufficient truth behind the myth or the allegation that Michel Platini was known to 'cannibalize' the strikers in front of him.

Michel Platini 1982/83:

12 goals / 1 PK goal / 25 competitive margin games.

5 goals / 5 blowout win games.

Paolo Rossi 1982/83:

2 goals / 1 PK goal / 19 competitive margin games.

3 goals / 1 PK goal / 4 blowout win games.

Platini scored 5 goals in 5 blowout win games; Rossi scored 3 goals in 4 blowout win games; the difference here is that Platini remains constant in the competitive margin games, versus Rossi who is inconsistent in the competitive margin games.

After his 2 year suspension in 1980/81 and 1981/82; Paolo Rossi is never consistent again, as sufficiently demonstrated by his 6 goals in 6 blowout win games; versus his 14 goals in 72 competitive margin games.

Before playing for Juventus, Paolo Rossi had scored 4 goals in 3 blowout win games; which is more or less the same goal scoring form that he displayed with Juventus in the blowout win games. So apparently, Platini was not cannibalizing the striker in the blowout win games; which is a very unconvincing theory, given the fact that said cannibalization of the striker should be clear in easy games for Platini to further inflate his statistics.

Why would Platini not 'cannibalize' Rossi in the easy games where Platini could most easily inflate his goal scoring statistics?

Why would Platini only and exclusively 'cannibalize' Rossi in the difficult competitive margin games, where Platini could not realistically afford to nullify the striker in front of him?

What the data shows, is that Paolo Rossi is an inconsistent player with or without the presence of Platini; in fact, if I'm not mistaken, Paolo Rossi never scored one single goal for Juventus in the Serie A, in the few games that Platini did not played.

Paolo Rossi's problems continued in AC Milan 1985/86. Now Platini could no longer be blamed for the 'cannibalization' of a striker who lacked consistency in the competitive margin games.

When Cristiano Ronaldo did not played for Real Madrid in La Liga, the result basically always was that both Karim Benzema and Gonzalo Higuain scored at double their normal rate, because Cristiano Ronaldo actually did 'cannibalized' the strikers around him in his years as a false-winger with both Real Madrid and Manchester United.

The same thing does not happen with Paolo Rossi... Rossi does not score at double his normal rate in the few games that Platini does not play; and on the same note, Rossi does not revives his career at AC Milan, where his problems continued.

Italy also failed to even qualify for Euro 1984, finishing in 4th place in a group that contained 5 teams. Paolo Rossi was also not scoring goals with the Italian national team; assuming that he played most of the qualifying games.

In conclusion: I do not see the cannibalization dynamic happening in any of Platini's teams. Even Euro 1984, has Platini playing long spells of the game deep in midfield, as was the case in the Semi Final vs. Portugal, the Final vs. Spain, and also in the Group Stage vs. Yugoslavia.

The idea that a prolific goal scorer who spends that much time in the midfield areas, can 'cannibalize' the strikers in front of him, appears to be based more on misguided and mistaken visual perception; the theoretical impossibility that a midfield player could ever realistically be as efficient as Platini was at scoring goals; it must surely be impossible to do what Platini did, without by definition cannibalizing the strikers in front of Platini, but the reality is that this claim does not appear to be backed up by much of anything.

The assumption is made that Paolo Rossi is the same player he ever was; but now nullified by Michel Platini at Juventus...

At any rate, the reality most probably is that Paolo Rossi is a consistent player in the easy blowout win games, but he never again proved to be a consistent player in the competitive margin games; this problem appears to be the result of his 2 year suspension; Rossi lost a step that he never appeared to recover after the 2 year suspension was over.

In his time with Juventus in the Serie A, Paolo Rossi did not scored goals at a significantly better rate when Platini did not played.

Italy did not qualified to Euro 1984; and I'm assuming that Paolo Rossi played all or most of the qualifier games.

AC Milan could not revive Paolo Rossi's career.

In conclusion: the problem that was Rossi's decline, did not appeared to be uniquely created as a result of Platini's style of play. This conclusion would, among other things, help explain why the available videos do not show any cannibalization process against Rossi; Rossi gets sufficient good service, and he simply fails to score the clear cut chances.

And as a final note; not only does Platini score a lot more goals versus Rossi, but Platini also offers a superior defensive contribution versus Rossi...



Cristiano Ronaldo - Benzema.

Cristiano Ronaldo defended a lot less than Benzema.

Cristiano Ronaldo also used the easy blowout win games to further expand his (inflated) statistical superiority versus Benzema.

Ronaldo could never quite replicate his amazing statistics in the more difficult context of competitive margin games; and this allowed Benzema to score more goals in the competitive margin games... Of course, Benzema could not do the same thing in the easy blowout win games, because Ronaldo had monopolized Real Madrid's actual service distribution.

Benzema scored at more or less double his normal ratio, when Cristiano Ronaldo did not played; this was especially true when Ronaldo would not play in an easy blowout win game.

Benzema's goal scoring form improved immediately upon Cristiano Ronaldo's move to Juventus.

I do not see Paolo Rossi suffering nor sacrificing anywhere near as much as Karim Benzema did in his time with Cristiano Ronaldo's Real Madrid.

 

Thanks, that's quite an interesting point of view. I wonder how much it applies in other contexts though. Take Bernard Lacombe for example. He was a quite a prolific goalscorer at club level (about 1 goal every 2 games). One could have expected him to be as efficient with France NT, but in fact his efficiency dropped quite a bit (1 goal every 3 games). It was in fact a deliberate choice to use him as a pivot striker who was asked to create space for Platini instead of taking chances for himself.
In WC86 both Stopyra and Rocheteau were asked to play wide in order to create space for Platini in the centre of the frontline. In some way, they also 'sacrificed' themselves, but given that context they still did relatively well, looking more closely at their figures (roughly the same numbers at club-level and NT). The word "cannibalizing" probably doesn't really applie to both of them (Rocheteau was not really an out-and-out striker btw) but probably more to Bernard Lacombe.

 

@babaorum

Take Bernard Lacombe for example. He was a quite a prolific goalscorer at club level (about 1 goal every 2 games). One could have expected him to be as efficient with France NT, but in fact his efficiency dropped quite a bit (1 goal every 3 games). It was in fact a deliberate choice to use him as a pivot striker who was asked to create space for Platini instead of taking chances for himself.

The problem with that logic, in my opinion of course, is that it is quite normal for prolific goal scorers to not be particularly prolific at the World Cup and/or the Euro.

And furthermore, I do not think it is realistically possible to score 1 goal every 2 games at NT level; the tactical cohesion is just never as good with national teams; national teams cannot practice every week; national teams cannot simply buy the specific players that would be ideal next to Bernard Lacombe, etc.

Therefore, in that context, the decline from 1 goal every 2 games, to 1 goal every 3 games, is basically what I would expect at NT level; even if Platini had never played for the French national team.

I mean, how many elite goal scorers do you know of who have scored 1 goal every 2 games at NT level?

At any rate, I think the biggest problem with statistical arguments of that nature, is that when you try to adjust for context, the result tends to be that the statistics are not constant across different contexts and/or different formats, etc.



Competitive Margin Games Versus Blowout Win Games.

Competitive Margin Games; any games not won by at least 3 goals of difference.

Blowout Win Games; any games won by at least 3 goals of difference.



Statistical Theory Argument:

Iniesta is a 1 goal in 10 games player. That's just what he is. His record in La Liga is 1 in 10 (34 in 403), his record in Classicos is 1 in 10 (3 in 33), his record in Europe is 1 in 10, his record for Spain is 1 in 10 (both in major championships and outside that).

Frank Lampard, without penalties, is a 1 goal in 4 games player. That is true in basically every competition that he has scored.



Statistical Reality In Context:

Frank Lampard allegedly is a 1 goal in 4 games player, regardless of the context... But in reality, the problematic long term dynamic is that Lampard never actually scores 1 goal per every 4 games in the context of competitive margin games.

And perhaps of far greater importance, is the fact that Lampard ends up scoring 4 non-penalty goals in 8 competitive margin league games, versus 1 non-penalty goal in 22 competitive margin league games...

Therefore, the problem is not only that Lampard never actually scores 10 goals per every 40 competitive margin games, but rather the most important part of the problem is that Lampard tends to have 4 games where he is very hot, which creates a mistaken statistical perception of him as a player who scores 1 goal per every 4 competitive margin games.



Frank Lampard 2004/05 Round 1 - Round 30:

1 non-penalty goal / 2 PK goals / 22 competitive margin games.

Lampard scores only 1 non-penalty goal, between Round 1 and Round 30; the league is 38 games long, and after 30 out of 38 games, Lampard only has 1 non-penalty goal registered.

Chelsea 77 points.

Manchester United 66 points.

Chelsea is 11 points in front of the second place team, with only 8 games to play in the league; in other words, the league is already essentially over by Round 30... And Frank Lampard has only scored 1 non-penalty goal in 22 competitive margin games.

Lampard as a player who scores 1 goal per every 4 games, should have scored a lot more than just one non-penalty goal... Lampard should have scored at the very least 5 non-penalty goals, but instead, Lampard only scored 1 non-penalty goal.

I mean, do you understand just how very problematic this context-sensitive statistical reality is?

The World Cup is only 3 Group Games, and another 4 elimination games; and again, most World Cup games, especially in the knock out stage, tend to be competitive margin games... So if Lampard scored only 1 non-penalty goal after 22 competitive margin games in the Premier League, as late as in Round 30 out of 38 Rounds; I mean, this helps explain, why Lampard was such a mediocre finisher at World Cup level and/or at Euro level.

The World Cup and/or the Euro will very rarely coincide with Lampard's Round 31 to Round 38; in other words, the World Cup and/or the Euro will most probably coincide with the version of Lampard that scored only 1 non-penalty goal as late as in Round 30 of the Premier League; Lampard's Round 1 to Round 30 is in fact far more probable to coincide with the World Cup and/or the Euro.



Frank Lampard 2004/05 Round 31 - Round 38:

4 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 8 competitive margin games.

Frank Lampard in only 8 competitive margin games, scored 4 non-penalty goals; literally 4 times as many non-penalty goals as he scored in the previous 22 competitive margin games. These short periods of hot form, help create the mistaken statistical perception of Lampard as a player who will score 1 goal per every 4 games regardless of context.



Frank Lampard 2004/05 Round 1 - Round 30:

5 non-penalty goals / 8 blowout win games.

Chelsea did not have any other blowout win games after Round 30, which means that... 4 out of 9 non-penalty goals by Lampard were scored after Round 30, after the league had already been virtually won by Chelsea; and then another 4 out of 9 non-penalty goals were scored in the relatively easy context of blowout win games...

In other words, Lampard scored only 1 open play goal in competitive margin games that were played before Round 31, at which point the league had already been virtually secured by Chelsea.

That type of intermittent goal scoring form is virtually impossible to replicate successfully at the World Cup; the World Cup very rarely has blowout wins in the knock out stage, and the World Cup very rarely is going to coincide with Lampard's Round 31 to Round 38 hot form; which is essentially why players like Lampard tend to rarely or never be at their best at the World Cup and/or the Euro.



Frank Lampard 2004/05 + 2005/06:

8 non-penalty goals / 5 PK goals / 40 competitive margin games.

Lampard should have scored 10 open play goals in 40 games; instead, Lampard scored 8 open play goals, but most importantly 4 out of 8 open play goals were actually scored in the 8 competitive margin games that were played between Round 31 and Round 38 of the Premier League 2004/05; which means that 4 goals in 8 competitive margin games, versus 4 goals in 32 competitive margin games.

Intermittent goal scoring form; 4 goals in 32 competitive margin games is well below Lampard's statistical reputation... Lampard should have scored 8 goals in 32 competitive margin games, if he is in fact a player who scores 1 goal per every 4 games; but instead, Lampard ends up scoring 4 goals, which is literally half the 8 goals that he should've scored.



Frank Lampard 2004/05:

5 non-penalty goals / 3 PK goals / 30 competitive margin games.

5 non-penalty goals / 8 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2005/06:

7 non-penalty goals / 3 PK goals / 28 competitive margin games.

5 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goals / 7 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2006/07:

5 non-penalty goals / 3 PK goals / 30 competitive margin games.

3 non-penalty goals / 7 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2007/08:

3 non-penalty goals / 2 PK goals / 21 competitive margin games.

3 non-penalty goals / 2 PK goals / 3 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2008/09:

7 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 32 competitive margin games.

3 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 6 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2009/10:

3 non-penalty goals / 3 PK goals / 24 competitive margin games.

9 non-penalty goals / 6 PK goals / 12 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2010/11:

4 non-penalty goals / 4 PK goals / 21 competitive margin games.

2 non-penalty goals / 3 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2011/12:

4 non-penalty goals / 3 PK goals / 32 competitive margin games.

4 non-penalty goals / 6 blowout win games.



Michel Platini 1982/83:

12 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 25 competitive margin games.

5 non-penalty goals / 5 blowout win games.



Michel Platini 1983/84:

15 non-penalty goals / 2 PK goals / 26 competitive margin games.

2 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 2 blowout win games.



Michel Platini 1984/85:

9 non-penalty goals / 3 PK goals / 27 competitive margin games.

5 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 3 blowout win games.



Michel Platini 1982/83 + 1983/84 + 1984/85:

36 non-penalty goals / 6 PK goals / 78 competitive margin games.

12 non-penalty goals / 2 PK goals / 10 blowout win games.

154 goals scored by Juventus.



Frank Lampard 2004/05 + 2005/06 + 2006/07:

16 non-penalty goals / 8 PK goals / 78 competitive margin games.

10 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 15 blowout win games.

208 goals scored by Chelsea.



Matt Le Tissier 1992/93:

14 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal / 39 competitive margin games.

Not one single blowout win game enjoyed by Le Tissier.



Matt Le Tissier 1993/94:

15 non-penalty goals / 6 PK goals / 36 competitive margin games.

2 non-penalty goals / 2 blowout win games.



Matt Le Tissier 1994/95.

15 non-penalty goals / 4 PK goals / 41 competitive margin games.

Not one single blowout win game enjoyed by Le Tissier.



Matt Le Tissier 1992/93 + 1993/94 + 1994/95:

44 non-penalty goals / 11 PK goal / 106 competitive margin games.

2 non-penalty goals / 2 blowout win games.

164 goals scored by Southampton.



Frank Lampard 2004/05 + 2005/06 + 2006/07:

20 non-penalty goals / 11 PK goals / 106 competitive margin games.

16 non-penalty goals / 3 PK goals / 25 blowout win games.

208 goals scored by Chelsea.




In other words, if Frank Lampard was a player who scored 1 goal per every 4 games... Then what exact words should be used to describe Michel Platini and Matt Le Tissier, both of whom blow Lampard out of the water in terms of goal scoring form in the competitive margin games?

At any rate, the problem with players like Lampard who demonstrably lack ability in terms of both ball retention and slalom dribbling, is that their goal scoring form relies heavily on the tactical cohesion of the team; and the tactical cohesion of a team will always fluctuate far more, than constant individual ability like ball retention and/or slalom dribbling.

If the tactical cohesion is not in top form, then Lampard will suffer a decline in form in the competitive margin games; this becomes more obvious at the World Cup and/or the Euro, where tactical cohesion is never quite as organized nor as consistent as at club level.

Gabriel Batistuta scored only 2 penalty kick goals in the World Cup knock out stage, despite the fact that Argentina was an elite team built around Batistuta; Batistuta was not nullified by Michel Platini nor by Diego Maradona, instead, Batistuta simply lacks both ball retention and slalom dribbling, and his goal scoring form declined as a result of Argentina's lack of tactical cohesion.

Jean Pierre Papin does not have a story with France, despite being a great striker at club level; failed to qualify for Euro 1988, failed to qualify for World Cup 1990, was eliminated in the group stage at Euro 1992, and again failed to qualify for World Cup 1994.

Marco van Basten suffered similar consequences at World Cup 1990.

Raul Gonzalez suffered similar consequences at every single tournament he played for Spain.

Thierry Henry suffered similar consequences at every single tournament he played for France.

At any rate, scoring goals is just nowhere near as constant as ball retention and/or slalom dribbling, which is why elite goal scorers have a long history of disappointing at the World Cup and also at the Euro.

On the other hand, Diego Maradona, Michel Platini, Zinedine Zidane, Andrea Pirlo, Xavi Hernandez; these players tend to do well at the World Cup, the Euro, and the Copa America; because ball retention and slalom dribbling are far more constant abilities, that do not rely as heavily on the tactical cohesion of their respective national sides.



Andres Iniesta 2008 - 2013:

6 goals / 98 competitive margin games.

12 goals / 49 blowout win games.



Frank Lampard 2004/05 + 2005/06:

11 goals / 6 PK goals / 49 competitive margin games.

10 goals / 1 PK goal / 15 blowout win games.



Andres Iniesta in blowout win games scores almost the same exact number of goals as Lampard in the competitive margin games; this should never happen...

Iniesta is by statistical definition a 1 goal in 10 games player.

Frank Lampard is by statistical definition a 1 goal in 4 games player.

So how to explain that Iniesta in the blowout win games scores almost literally the same number of goals as Lampard in the competitive margin games?

Iniesta 12 goals in 49 games.

Lampard 11 goals in 49 games.

That is a large sample size, 49 games, the crucial difference is in the context; Iniesta scored 12 goals in 49 blowout win games; versus Lampard who scored 11 goals in 49 competitive margin games.

The statistic does not adapt to the context; Iniesta is not always a 1 goal in 10 games player; and by the same principle, Lampard is not always a 1 goal in 4 games player; the context is crucial.

Of course, what makes this even more interesting that it already was, is the fact that Iniesta, even in the context of blowout win games; Iniesta rarely ever gets a chance to score a goal; Barcelona was built so that Samuel Eto'o, Thierry Henry, Lionel Messi, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Pedro, and Cesc Fabregas, get to score the goals; Iniesta is at the very bottom of players who were expected to score goals.

And when Iniesta actually tries to score goals in the handful of Champions League games against top tier opponents, his scoring ratio is actually quite close to that of Lampard.

Lampard 2005 - 2012:

8 games vs. Barcelona / 1 non-penalty goal / 1 PK goal.

6 games vs. Liverpool / 2 non-penalty goals / 1 PK goal.

2 games vs. Inter Milan / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

Final vs. Manchester United / 1 non-penalty goal.

2 games vs. Manchester United / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

Final vs. Bayern Munich / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

Total: 4 non-penalty goals, 2 penalty kicks, out of 20 games.

Iniesta 2008 - 2015:

4 games vs. Chelsea / 2 non-penalty goals.

4 games vs. Bayern Munich / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

2 games vs. Inter / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

2 games vs. Real Madrid / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

4 games vs. AC Milan / 1 non-penalty goal.

2 games vs. Atletico Madrid / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

2 Finals vs. Manchester United / 0 non-penalty goals / 0 PK goals.

Total: 3 non-penalty goals, out of 20 games.