Soccer Hall of Fame voting 2007 (R)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Dan Loney, Jan 19, 2007.

  1. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    The ballots are just being sent out today, apparently, but I'm just going to skip ahead here. You see, on this year's ballot, Mia Hamm, Julie Foudy and Joy Fawcett are in their first year of eligibility. And those are your winners. Hence the (R).

    To recap, this isn't like baseball or football - three go in at a time, maximum. And it's going to be Hamm, Foudy, and Fawcett.

    Marco Etcheverry? Gonna have to wait. Raul Diaz Arce? Might be a while. Joe-Max Moore? Don't rush your acceptance speech. Hamm. Foudy. Fawcett.

    Here are the rules, once again.

    The two players who receive the most votes are elected to the Hall of Fame each year as long as they are named on at least 50% of the ballots cast. A third candidate may be elected if that candidate is named on at least 80% of the ballots cast.

    Hey, I didn't say I wasn't gonna not vote for Etcheverry. If it were up to me, he'd be in this year. But he's never going to outpoll Hamm or Foudy, so he's fighting for third place. Besides, if Valderrama didn't stroll in, neither will Marco. Both Etcheverry and Fawcett belong unquestionably, but Fawcett belongs unquestionably unquestionably.*

    Now, let me tell you what you're going to see in reaction to this. You're going to hear an unnecessary amount of complaining that the women and men are in the same pool. And I'm with you there, in theory. Two different sports. Pretty much two different fanbases.

    Here's the problem, though. If you separate the two player pools after this year, who are you going to have coming up through the women's side? Scurry, Chastain, Lilly. Later on - we're talking years from now - Boxx and Wambach. Those are the only players that are right now solid Hall of Fame candidates - that's a schedule of maybe one player every two years, depending on retirement dates. A separate pool for the women means they will all get in, plus a lot of borderline candidates that would otherwise be swamped by Marco Etcheverry, Preki, and so forth. The men's side is producing candidates at a much greater clip than the women.

    If WUSA had kept going, that would be one thing. If WS2 Electric Boogaloo takes off, then down the road we might have a reason to split the ballot. But not now. So 2007 will be the Year of the Ponytail. Embrace the estrogen.

    *A tribute to Bobby Robson, who once said of Paul Ince, "There are lots of special players, but he's special special."
     
  2. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    (Because Dan is the Alpha Dog here, no one's going to see/respond to my thread in the "Soccer in the USA" forum, so I'll re-post it here).

    I know the list came out two weeks ago, but I just received my ballot today and these players are on it for the Class of 2007:

    Leonel Alvarez
    Geoff Aunger
    Brian Bliss
    Paul Bravo
    Mike Burns
    Jeff Causey
    Mauricio Cienfuegos
    Mike Clark
    Amanda Cromwell
    Raul Diaz Arce
    Thomas Dooley
    John Doyle
    Tracy Ducar
    Ted Eck
    Marco Etcheverry
    Richard Farrer
    Joy Fawcett
    Julie Foudy
    Adam Frye
    Wendy Gebauer
    Mario Gori
    Mia Hamm
    Zak Ibsen
    Mo Johnston
    Debbie Keller
    John Kerr, Jr.
    Dominic Kinnear
    Frank Klopas
    Jena Kluegel
    Mike Lapper
    Roy Lassiter
    John Maessner
    Brian Maisonneuve
    Holly Manthei
    Pato Margetic
    Chad McCarty
    Matt McKeon
    Janusz Michallik
    Joe-Max Moore
    Siri Mullinix
    Victor Nogueira
    Peter Nowak
    Cindy Parlow
    Uche Okafor
    Francis Okaroh
    Brandon Pollard
    Tom Presthus
    Mark Santel
    Mark Semioli
    Nikki Serlenga
    Mark Simpson
    Diego Sonora
    Mike Sorber
    Steve Trittschuh
    Carlos Valderrama
    David Vaudreuil
    Tisha Venturini-Hoch
    Peter Vermes
    Robert Warzycha
    Saskia Webber
    Roy Wegerle
    Sara Whalen

    Players in bold are on the ballot for the first time.

    The election policies of the Hall of Fame state that two (2) players will be elected to the Hall of Fame from this ballot as long as each receives a minimum of 50% of the vote. A third player may be elected if that individual receives a minimum of 80% of the vote.

    In order to be eligible, a player must have met No. 1 and either No. 2 or No. 3 of the following three criteria:

    No. 1. He or she must have been retired as a player for at least three years, but for no more than 10 years (for the 2007 election, this means that he or she must have retired no later than 2004 and no earlier than 1997).

    No. 2. He or she must have played at least 20 full international games for the United States. This 20-game requirement is reduced to 10 games if the games were prior to 1990.

    No. 3. He or she must have played at least five seasons in an American first-division professional league, and won the league championship, won the U.S. Open Cup or been a league all-star at least once. Players who have met either No. 2 or No. 3 but who retired more than 10 years ago and thus do not meet No. 1 are on the Veterans Committee eligibility list rather than this list.

    -------------------------------------------------
    I like to take my time and go through the merits of everybody on the list before I submit my official ballot, but my initial read of the list is that Mia's a lock.

    The three players with the most votes who didn't get in last year were:
    Thomas Dooley - 71 votes - 62.83%
    Bruce Murray - 62 votes - 54.87%
    Carlos Valderrama - 56 votes - 49.56%

    Valderrama's name is mis-spelled on the official ballot, FWIW.

    Anyway, Murray's off the ballot now, the Veterans Committee will have to consider him.

    Foudy may have to wait - I'm not sure that she and Mia would be the top two vote-getters at the same time, but we'll see.

    I'm totally voting for Noguiera (you can vote for up to 10 players) because the Hall and I have a little difference of opinion about whether indoor players should be honored on their own merits. So, a primarily indoor player who also played outdoor and thus sneaks onto the ballot and deserves it in my mind will get my vote (like Pato Margetic last year).
     
  3. sprovi

    sprovi New Member

    Jul 3, 2004
    Where I breathe
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know, I have to agree with you. Nogueira was league MVP three years in a row, and this was before the MLS was in existence. And, the pre-MLS NPSL featured many of the best American players, minus those playing in Europe. I grew up in Milwaukee and while I am not a fan of the Wave organization as a whole, I can say that this guy was easily one of the most amazing keepers I ever saw. And, it is good to add, he was offered an MLS contract for the 1996 season, but turned it down because, and this is no joke, he was making more money for the Wave. The Journal Sentinel had noted he was making around $80,000 (regular season and camps) for Milwaukee, much more than the MLS was willing pay.

    My other votes would be for Hamm and Dooley.
     
  4. jalantingle

    jalantingle New Member

    Sep 9, 2006
    Arlington
  5. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Oh. I saw the bolded names, and was about to say, "Kenn, that is the WORST ballot I have ever seen in my entire life. Amanda Cromwell ahead of Valderrama?"

    Yeah, indoor. I understand there should be some means of celebrating the guys in the 1980's and early 90's who carried the torch. Tatu WAS soccer in the 80's, like it or lump it.

    But I also understand why people would rather swim in blood than acknowledge the indoor game.
     
  6. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know what? I think you're right - Hamm, Foudy and Fawcett's credentials are so overwhelming that it makes sense they could all go in together on the first ballot. Don't know the gender makeup of the entire electorate, though. That might raise the whole men's soccer vs. women's soccer debate as it pertains to the Hall ballot, which is a valid concern.

    Is Joy Fawcett a Hall of Famer? Absolutely, in my mind. Is she a better player than Frank Klopas? Probably not. Is Frank Klopas a Hall of Famer? Probably not.

    But I said last year that I don't compare Joy Fawcett to Frank Klopas. I compare Joy Fawcett to Joy Fawcett's universe and Frank Klopas to his. Perhaps it's unfair that they're on the same ballot, then, and perhaps not.
     
  7. Futsal Fred

    Futsal Fred Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Bloomsburg, PA
    So the problem is not just that they've shoehorned two very distinct and seperate entities into the same hall - male and femle - but also that they've crammed an all-but-seperate SPORT - indoor soccer - into it as well.

    In any HOF - and I live 10 or 12 miles from Canton, but have been to Cooperstown many more times - one of the fun parts of the experience is to speculate on how players from different eras would match up: Would Honus Wagner beat out Brooks Robinson at third base, or Bench over Berra behind the plate? Who's your game seven starter, Gibson or Feller?

    Unfortunately, in Oneonta, what we really have is two - or three - distinct HOF's on parallel tracks; you've got players of the same age who were active at the same time who never played against each other.

    So what you're forced to adjudge is not Player A's ability and skills vs. Player B's abilities and skills; as Daniel points out, even a modest talent like Klopas would easily skate past any of the "giants" of the women's game.

    Rather, the standard has to be "impact" or "influence on the game" or some other nebulous standard. But since Julie Foudy is likely as unhappy as anyone that the womyn don't have their own HOF - although 20 or 30 years on I can see that happening - this arrangement would have to do.

    I would only add two things: with regard to the indoor players, if you put in a guy like Tatu based on his impact or fame or whatever (and how many other soccer players have Russian lesbian singing groups named afetr them?) then there's no excuse for excluding guys like Hector Marinaro, who scored a zillion goals and played forever, and Stan Turlecki and Steve Zungul (league MVP, like 50 times) and What's-his-name Karic (Zoltan? Can't recall) and on and on.

    Secondly, on a strictly subjective basis, I think Dooley's support has peaked. There are just too many questionable areas, from his somewhat late inclusion into US Soccer - "Vhat? You zay I am ze American?" - to his luridly disgraceful exit from Columbus after more or less openly attempting to bring down Tom Fitzgerald. I wouldn't waste the vote.
     
  8. sprovi

    sprovi New Member

    Jul 3, 2004
    Where I breathe
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think Hector and Zoran are on here due to their retirement dates, however I could be wrong. For the record, I would vote for them too.

    I think the easiest solution here is to get rid of the three person per year limit and run it more like baseball. If you get a certain percentage of the vote you are in. There are several people that deserve to be in the hall on this list. I never knew of the "disgraceful" exit of Dooley from Columbus. Without that knowledge, I'd still vote for him. He was a remarkable back that showed up for every game. It's not like he was a David Regis!!! :)
     
  9. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    I'll also repeat my posts from the other thread:


    I believe I'm on record as saying the Hall should allow more than three players to be elected to the Hall if they get 80%. This year shows why. No one will ever convince me Hamm, Foudy, Fawcett, Dooley, El Pibe and El Diablo aren't no-brainer Hall of Famers.

    You may be able to twist my arm on Noguiera, too. If it weren't for indoor, where would Chivas USA find its coaches?

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I wonder what would happen if five players got 100%.

    Sadly, that wouldn't happen. There will be a handful of people who refuse to vote for women, so Hamm won't be unanimous. It wouldn't surprise me if Fawcett didn't make it on this ballot, even though she may be the best defender the women's game has ever seen.

    I'll vote for Foudy, but I could understand if she doesn't squeeze through the gate this time around.

    Dooley's continued absence from the Hall is a travesty. He was one of the best players on the national team in the mid-90s, when it established itself as a legit power within CONCACAF and racked up a few big wins, and captain in the 1998 World Cup. He made the MLS Best XI in 1997 and 1998.

    Of course, Dooley raises the question of how much you consider European play, just as Noguiera raises the question on indoor play. I can't recall if there are specific instructions to ignore either European or indoor play, but the criteria give heavy weight to U.S. outdoor play. If you consider accomplishments in Europe, then Dooley is that much more of a no-brainer. He won the Bundesliga and the UEFA Cup, for Pete's sake.

    I'll point out that I am a fan of the Hall, and I'm glad they've introduced specific criteria. I just think the criteria should be tweaked a little.
     
  10. I'm voting for Cindy Parlow because she's wicked hot and she was kind enough to answer all my fanmail.

    Mia Hamm never did that. She just called the police.
     
  11. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    United States
    Dec 28, 2006
    Cowlumbus, OH
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anyone know who the veteran's committee might be considering? There's a couple of notable absences from the old NASL days, specifically Bob Rigby from the Atoms and Cosmos (among other teams). He led a team starting (as I recall) 7 american players to the NASL championship in 1973 (it may have been the first win ever by a first year expansion team in any US sport) becoming the first US soccer player to appear on the cover of SI. His GAA of 0.62 for the 1973 season is the NASL record. Bob Smith, defender, also of the Atoms and Cosmos, was part of the 1973 "No Goal Patrol" defense and also deserves some consideration. It's a shame to see non-US players who may have only played a couple of seasons in the US be part of the Hall when deserving US NASL pioneers are left out. Yes, may times those non-US player are world HoF'ers in their own rights but really had more of an impact out side of their US careers.
     
  12. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, they haven't shoehorned indoor into there at all. The Hall officially doesn't recognize indoor players as being eligible for their indoor play.

    You won't see Marinaro and Karic enshrined in Oneonta (unless they change their policies) because they didn't play enough outdoor at a high-enough level.
     
  13. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1) Wagner was a shortstop
    2) Bench
    3) Jack Morris
     
  14. rms5555

    rms5555 Member

    Aug 2, 2006
    Eastpointe, MI
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OT I just wanted to say thanKs for recognizing that the only acceptable subtitle for any sequel number 2 is Electric Boogaloo.
     
  15. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I've been following voting trends for years, and I've also talked with various voters. Things that I suspect - there are folks who won't vote for three women's players. There are voters who won't vote for foreign players. There are voters who won't vote for Roy Lassiter.

    Disregarding who I think should make it, and only placing bets on who will make it in, I honestly think that only two players will get in this year. One is Hamm, the other is much harder to predict. A lot of it depends on who avoids getting "bloc"ed out. At what point do MLS careers get folks into the Hall? What else do a Lassiter, Cienfuegos, or Etcheverry need to have done to earn a Hall pass? Foudy and Fawcett will both eventually be in the Hall, but how long will they be delayed because some voters will only vote for one (or no) women?

    Of course the other NSHOF topic of note: The US Soccer Federation needs to be called out. The USSF stepped in a couple of years ago and bailed out the financially struggling Hall of Fame. The USSF still continues to cover losses. That's great. What's not so great? The Hall of Fame blocked out - with USSF knowledge - August 26th for induction ceremonies this year. Now, it looks like the USSF is going to schedule a pre-WWC friendly between the USWNT and Brazil for, yep, August 26th at the Home Depot Center. Last year, a couple former women's players had to take a red-eye from Chicago to catch Carla Overbeck's induction. This year that's not even possible. What happens if Foudy is voted in? The USSF has done great work in stabilizing the Hall of Fame financially, but they keep sabotaging the Hall's ability to build its signature event.
     
  16. Tony Cheval

    Tony Cheval New Member

    Mar 17, 2000
    Colorado
    Just because somebody has to say it:

    Hang down your head, Tom Dooley.
     
  17. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]

    At least, I didn't last year. Check back with me later.
     
  18. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    And how. The only record he still holds is single season goals scored, and ask Roger Maris how much ice that cuts.

    Well, that and the planet-wide offside record.

    Etcheverry and Cienfuegos have fairly good explanations for why their US national team careers don't move the needle. Lassiter doesn't.

    Since the comparatively obscure (and indisputably deserving, don't get me wrong) Carla Overbeck rolled by Valderrama, Cienfuegos, Dooley and Lassiter, I'm not too worried about Foudy or Fawcett. Well, I shouldn't be.

    I have been assured that Nogueira's indoor career mattered as little to his qualifications as yours or mine. Six years in the NASL, and a spot on a title-winning team. Weird to think that an NASL veteran retired in 2004.

    We will also accept "WS2: The Quickening" as a sequel reference. It was a close call destined to be hotly disputed, but "WS2: Breaking Training" has been rejected.

    Wagner was the best shortstop; Josh Gibson is my catcher; and Three-Finger Brown is my game seven pitcher.
     
  19. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Juiced-ball era. In the early days of MLS, a midfielder could just make a simple cutback move, and the defense would act like a baby in the midst of a peek-a-boo game. "Huh? Where did he go? Where's Daddy? Where's Daddy?"

    I could see Lassiter in the Hall, but if I were ranking this year in order of preference, it would probably somewhere along the lines of:

    Hamm
    Fawcett
    Dooley
    El Diablo
    El Pibe
    Foudy
    Lassiter
    Nowak
    Joe-Max

    And then a cluster of people worth discussing: Nogueira, Vermes, Wegerle, Parlow, Burns, Johnston

    I'll probably vote for the top six this year, and I'm hoping the Veterans Committee eventually brings in Bruce Murray and Hugo Perez.

    I wonder how many voters realize you can vote for more than three. Judging by the vote totals, at least half of them do. But I'm not sure all of them get it. And I'm not sure if we have any people like the baseball voters who don't want to make someone a unanimous first-ballot pick just because someone else wasn't in 1946. (In the literal sense, that's impossible because we've only been voting this way since we put in Akers, Wynalda and Caligiuri in 2004. Of course, in 2005, they added five guys from the ASL days.)
     
  20. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I voted for Bruce Murray last year, and I hope he gets in eventually.

    Joe-Max? I really liked Joe-Max. But he simply didn't score as many goals consistently as I would like a Hall of Fame forward to score.
     
  21. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Scott and I have already finished our list. Let me know when you want to compare.
     
  22. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Joe-Max will suffer from the buyer's remorse that I think voters feel over sending Tab Ramos to the Hall so easily.
     
  23. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    I would think Hugo Perez is the frontrunner for this. That he's not in already is an embarresment to the Hall. This is the first year he's not on the regular ballot and I suspect the vets will rectify what the regular voters didn't have the common sense to do ASAP.

    Speaking of the voters, if you guys don't get Dooley in the Hall this year, the entire lot of you need to have your voting priveleges revoked for incompetence.
     
  24. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because, God knows, humans can't have differences of opinion.
     
  25. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Lassiter has a good reason: Steve Sampson.

    Rocket Roy scored three goals in qualifying for France 98, and not just easy ones, either. He scored the loan goal in a road game in El Salvador that allowed the US to come away with key road point. He scored a tying goal in the cauldron (tribute to Jack and Ty) that is Saprissa stadium (even though the US eventually blew the point) and he scored the game-winner against CR to help the US advance to the Hex.

    Those aren't meaningless goals and it's not bad productivity. Three goals in five qualifiers. Plus, he was among the best strikers in MLS at the time and was in the midst of a great scoring run just after being traded to DC when Sampson announced the roster.

    In hindsight, leaving Roy off for the likes of some of the brokedown players that Sampson selected like Wegerle or Waldo who had nothing left in the tank was a big blunder by SS. As others have noted, never leave a hot striker off your WC team. (Bruce seemed to learn this lesson when he picked Ching, who was on fire in MLS, then failed to play him, showing he hadn't learned the lesson completely.:eek: )

    Lassiter's exclusiuon from the WC team was more because of the r-tard in charge of the team than it was because Roy hadn't earned it. And, given that he scored three key qualifying goals, it's hard to fairly say he never contributed anything to the national team.

    Combine that with all he did in MLS - folks forget he was MVP of the CONCACAF Champions' Cup when United won it, which was a big boost of confidence to US Soccer and MLS after the France debacle, or that he shared for the goal-scoring lead in MLS in 99 or that he had double figures in goals and assists in 99 and that he won two Supporters' Shields, an MLS Cup and the Champions' Cup (plus played in a college final four and had three good years in Costa Rica) or that when he left DCU they went straight in the tank - and he has a good case for inclusion.

    I doubt he gets in, but there is more to his career than the single-season goal-scoring record he holds from 96.
     

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