The US vs Haiti game is on replay as I type on GOLtv. The US vs Guatemala is tonight at 5:30 CT according to the guide on my dish. Other than watching Wallace play, you can tune in a see the version of the 4-3-3 that Morrow discussed with me this winter in vague terms (among several other possible formations) I am not saying FCD is going to play this way, I don't think Morrow has picked a shape yet.... but some of you asked about the 4-3-3 and this is a good chance to see the version Morrow talked about. If you want later we can talk about how this is different from the 4-3-3 we saw under Clarke. The US against Haiti played something like this ----------------Akpan-------------------- Rogers-------------------------------Zizzo -----------------Adu--------------------- --------Szetela--------Wallace----------- Ward-----Valentin-----Sturgis----------Kirk --------------- Seitz----------------------- while the players will change for the Guat game I expect, you should see the same shape with two high wingers flanking a target striker, two holding mids behind an attacking mid, and a basic flat four in the back. They do a fiarly good job with the shape, keeping the wings nice and high for the most part.
So, using the current roster (and what the hell, throw Davids into the mix) how would this work for FCD. I did enjoy watching this game the other night, and I did think about how Rongen was using the 4-3-3...but in the end I came to the conclusion that it was hard to really judge due the mismatch in quality between the two sides. Of course this version of the formation looked great, when you have 80% of the possession and virtually all of the scoring chances a freakin' 3-6-1 would look the greatest tactic since advent of the 1-2 pass.
Interesting... when I talked to Morrow about the 4-3-3, he mentioned that he preferred to play the three up top as three striker free to go where they want, rather than one target and two wingers. Did he give you a different impression?
The U20's are coached by Thomas Rongen. Rongen was a youth player for Ajax. Ajax has traditionally played a 433 with 2 of the forwards being true outside players or wingers in the tradition of Arjen Robben (who wasn't from Ajax), Piet Keizer, or Rob Rensenbrink. That's the Ajax system (or part of it). I doubt that Morrow's version of the 433 strictly follows the Ajax approach (though Buzz or people who've talked to him would have a better handle on this). What would probably be of more insight to you is not what the forwards are doing (b/c DCU played with 3 forwards last year at times as Adu would push up but Moreno was always very withdrawn)--there are lots of schemes. Instead, watch what the midfield is doing--whether the central mid is a hard-working A-mid or instead a central mid in the model of a John Harkes (who plays in both directions) and whether the outside mids play outside or instead congest the middle (and the outside backs are expected to provide width).
well that's more complicated and I would be guessing. Let's come back to that once spring training rolls around. true, I agree. But as an exercise in what it should look like you get a fair idea.
true, Morrow did make that distinction. Although the difference in that case is not too dramatic. You can watch the U20s and imagine the from three swapping rather than playing more disciplined channels... otherwise the shape is the same.
Psshhh....fine. But I'm not happy about it. Yes, it did allow for lots of flowing, overlapping play with a strong attack on the flanks and the ability of midfielders to get into the box and confuse the hell out of the backline. I'm excited to watch tonight's game as I think Guatemala will provide more of a challenge. I'm interested to see if and how Rongen incorporates Altidore in this formation. He's big enough to play the target, but his skill set is more of a slashing, winger, I would think. Despite the hattrick (which was total crap) I was not overly impressed with Akpin as the target.
correst. This is where the u20s look like what Morrow is talking about, at least to me... a A-mid (freddy Adu) with two wider mids both of whom play a two way holding/linking role and have great range.(Szetela, Wallace) another key element is the outside backs are defenders first and have responsibility for the outside mids of the oppoision, thut not forcing the wide forwards to track back and become a 4-5-1. Don't get to carried away cause Morrow also talked 4-4-2 and 3-5-2. but you all know what that looks like. This U20 shape is the closest to be seen right now to what he was talking about.
Rongen rested some of his top tier talent I think as the three games in six days is a lot. I expect Altirode to be the center target.... but I could be wrong.
I heard that Altidore had an illness and that Zimmerman and Pearce were late arrivals, so they were all scratched. I don't think it was a tactical decision. But, of course, it would make sense to rest players during the tournament.
hey buzz, not to change the subject, but i thought you had wallace pegged as a right sided player for fc dallas. you have him as a left mf with the u20's. i saw the haiti game & he seemed very left footed. did i see the right player?
As for as a I know he's a righty and I drew him that way above, although I think he's actaully fairly two footed. The info he would compete at right back for FCD right away was from Morrow.
Ummm, after this latest display, I'd say that if you guys wish to play a hideously dull match that features no shots on goal against mediocre opposition, then the U20 tactics are for you.
Message to Morrow....stop stealing tactics from WrongAgain if you wish to last longer than your predecessor.
Goodson and Wallace should have a who is more of a crane face-off. I'd imagine it'd look something like the fight scenes in Team America.
Unable to watch this one, but please help me out. How is the flank space between the outside backs and the wide forward covered on the defensive side of the ball? If the forward covers, then we get into the old tired debate of whether or not it is a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1. Do the defensive mids slide from side to side to cover the space? Or, do the outside backs play in a more smiley faced shape and roll over and up? Same questions on the possession side of the ball we they exploit the width. Do the outside backs penetrate as wing backs? Does the wide forward drop to receive, (again creating a 4-5-1) or do the defensive midfielders open wide, (unlikely), ?
Both, but more often it's the outside back. With the U20s you see some width from the outside back, although more from Kirk than from Beltran and Ward. They do play higher in the curved kinda back four. But you also get high width from the wings The trick to not getting the 4-5-1 is tactical discipline from the outside baks and wings. It will be interesting to see if Morrow can get that when it was not to be seen here sometimes. Those are some key issues.
1. He's not borrowing it from Rongen. Ajax is the team that has really made the 433 their system--the team of Cruyff, Rinus Michels, etc. 2. Buzz had some good points about the questions on wide midfield issues. Here are some more points: --when you have 2 dedicated wingers who play up (not overlapping outside backs or a couple of outside mids who get forward but TWO forwards who play wide) you tend to pin the other team's outside backs to their backline. And their outside mids get pulled back into support. Watch tapes of the old Ajax teams using this system and it's surprising how few attacks they faced on the outside. --the way Morrow's intention as been explained (as I understand it), this scheme works well when you have versatile strikers. Cooper is a good example. He's a target man, no--he's an outside mid, nah he's a withdrawn forward. When those 3 forwards stay up and move around, it plays havoc with backlines and marking assignments, it punishes defenses that don't constantly communicate, it rewards versatile forwards. And it forces the other team to keep defenders back (which opens up midfield). --IF you sign Davids, it's a good scheme for him. Not b/c he's Dutch (he's played under a gazillion schemes at this point in his career). But in a more standard setup (say a 442), a D-mid would be mostly a D-mid. And isn't that a bit of a waste for a DP--to be mostly a defender and ball-winner who's offensive contributions consist of making a really good decision with their first touch? But in a 433, the D-mid can either spend a lot more time roaming the field and has more space to move with the ball when he wins it. Or you could play Davids in a central mid role which wouldn't be the A-mid role Adu is in but would allow him to use his vision and touch and judgment. --Yeah, it requires tactical discipline but so does any other scheme. Smart defenders should push up when there is no-one to mark, there are no mis-matches elsewhere on the backline and they have space in front of them. A tactic that most teams have tried against DCU is to congest midfield. That's b/c a talented midfield wants space (so those talented players get more touches on the ball, have more time to create and it's harder to force them to give the ball up quickly). While the 433 gets a lot of attention b/c of the 3 forwards, it's really more about a tactic to create space in midfield (by forcing the opposing team to pull defenders back who might normally push forward). That's my 2 cents anyway.
Thanks Joe, nice insight especially about the versatile forwards. If we resign Mina then it really works. Not as sure with Thompson as both he and Ruiz are more targets but even so they figured out a way to work together so maybe they are both versatile enough also. Does your explanation on the defenders and wide mids make it more likely that Wagner is the starter over Wags since he would be pushed up and offense might be more important that defense?