The thread for Ruud Gullit

Please move this criticism of Laudrup, Ronaldinho and pals to another thread. The '100 greatest per position' thread or so. This is cancelling the purpose of this thread.

If you want to make a point Gullit has a strong record in finals at a time goals were hard to come by, fine (the Delanay and Corbett list from a decade ago showed the same thing - comfortably in the top 50 ever until then). Maybe all the other 'bete noires' don't have that.

But please condense it to a few posts (not 50+ entries of individual games - with some counting errors in accumulating the numbers). I think many can appreciate it people investigate this for themselves but, and I don't want to sound rude or impolite, not a presentation like this.

@comme - in case my earlier request is not seen or does not trigger an notification (that can happen I know).

 

A comparison in finals is fine but not spread out over 50+ posts (imho). For the 1991-92 assist count you had it also condensed to a single post. Kudos for that effort and I'll revisit it.

I am honest when I say I am not Gullit his biggest fan. But I think it might actually help people when I say, from my informed if flawed opinion, Gullit had his best phase over here in 1985-86.

I wanted to highlight his Oranje games before 1988 - as a start - for two reasons:

- Those have become forgotten now. A lot more so than him playing alongside Cruijff in 1983-84 at Feyenoord (too bad they narrowly missed out on euro 1984 - Cruijff might have played there). Here and abroad. There is an English book, by an Englishman, about his Feyenoord spell, to give an idea.

- You can actually appreciate his class there. Such as him playing in 1986 against West Germany, in West Germany (with an Austrian referee - no, not the Helmut Kohl one), in a not so friendly atmosphere. West Germany only missed Rummenigge compared to their World Cup team. Netherlands missed many players, including Rijkaard and Van Basten. With a sub-standard team Gullit looks good there (match could have been 3-3). And one famous scene, often returning in introduction compilations, has him toying with seasoned Bundesliga defenders. While they try to kick him and tumble over him, slip on the grass while Gullit is dancing with the ball. The German match commentator says actually that a) Holland belongs in Mexico and b) Gullit is a phenomenon.

I don't think it is my intention to only show the negative stuff but if, say, over here the Dutch match commentator liked Laudrup a bit more in 1984, then I note it too. Because also that provides context for how Gullit was/is seen, and how a perception grows. With what lense people looked at the game and him.

 

I saw that question earlier a few times. I think I replied (?) the goal is familiar to me. With power, control and change of direction, but I cannot find it on the internet right now. I think I know which goal he means.

 

My next post will be about the 1986 West-Germany match (and also something nice about Matthaus! seriously!).

"honestly it gives me the impression that he doesn't like Ruud Gullit as a person and as a player either."

This is (for a part) a misunderstanding. I hope below clarification is not superfluous . (found my passion for football back! I have more time now and can type/think faster again!)

As a person

As a person I think he is cheerful and for 90% likable. My evaluation of that (both rationally and feeling-wise) has moved upward in the past ten years. I now think and feel less negative about his role in the 1990 World Cup or him walking away in 1994 (what about that dozen players not going to 1978 in Argentina? the list is long). When I read or hear negative stuff about his spell as Newcastle United manager, if anything I'd like to defend him. With now Shearer, among others, in an influential punditry role and the the Roy of the Rovers captain for England in that time.

While he might creditably radiate he has one of the highest peaks ever, certainly for Benelux standards, he rarely (never?) really went that far. He has always been a fanboy of Van Basten - think he always was from 1984 onward. He said about himself he is a "great player", see the first page when he was in De Kuip in 1995, but to my knowledge never really radiated "I am the best" or "I had a peak like Ronaldo" (you can pick which Ronaldo).


(5:50 onward)


(the first 7 minutes - also a special message for England fans at the very end of the video)

As a pundit

Obviously I don't always see him at work (I switched off the TV for Germany vs Hungary when the match commentator couldn't stop talking about Kroos from minute one onward, when scoreline was 1-0, and Ruud was on duty). I think Gullit his level can vary quite a bit here. I have seen him om MOTD several years ago when he was brilliant about Chelsea their five men defense, how important it is then to switch play etc. On many other occasions I'd give him a 3/10.

He also tends to have a standard where only your Mbappes, your Maradonas, your Ronaldos can play football (or Van Nistelrooij, in his eyes). That is not insightful punditry for me. The CEO of Shell can see that too, the daughter of my brother can see this. Cruijff had a reputation for being critical and savage, but I think with him it was more like 20/80 (15% good 85% not great). When everyone is "sensational" and "legend" it loses meaning; when only Mbappe and Maradona can play football it also loses meaning. Cruijff for example said in 2003 (!!) already Kompany has something. Look where he is now, manager of Bayern Munich, legend of Man City. Of course he was sometimes also wrong, like any talent spotter, and then I always remember Tarik Oulida.

I think it is admirable Gullit can express himself in Portuguese Brazilian (only know this recently, thanks for this @Wiliam Felipe Gracek - peace, as @PDG1978 said in the Maradona thread), in Italian, in German in Germany etc. That speaks for him.

I also think a young Van Dijk with his rampaging runs (example and example) and free kicks sometimes looked like Gullit (no, not in that class). For some reason Gullit never said this. Then the nonsense "played only one tournament" - well, look at how he actually performed in an Oranje shirt between 2015 and 2020 in particular. It is very impressive, also statistically at an individual level (between 2015 and early this year he never lost with more than 2 goals conceded).

Van Dijk is a good example of that for Gullit only your Matthaus, Rijkaards, Mbappes and Zidanes can play football.

As a player

I think it is transparent and honest when you say you are not someone's biggest fan (but as said, opinions can change, see first paragraph). Not a "best ever" or "second only to Cruijff" type of fan, or "this is 100% my playing style" type of fan.

I'd like to point out though some influential lists ranked him lower. Around 2000 he was regularly placed ninth on more than one occasion. My placement is higher, with the retirement of Robben and Bergkamp still in the future at that time.

Two influential all-time lists from 1999 (seventh and ninth - for the latter I also posted all the descriptions):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ation-1979-1994.1978389/page-20#post-38713069
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ation-1979-1994.1978389/page-21#post-38714963
(see also how 35/100 placed him in their all-time XI)

For all the Eredivisie players between 1981 and 2014 (16th)
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ation-1979-1994.1978389/page-18#post-38563301

I don't think placing him 9th in 1999 is fair and does justice to reality. This are almost all not stupid lists and, for the most part, by people who know their stuff. 16th for Eredivisie players is also not my placement. I'd think around top 10, possibly higher (haven't thought very deep about that, or saw all that is available - also for that reason an opinion can change, go up).

I hope this post is appreciated. The pundit Gullit I am very often indeed not a fan of. Good to see PDG back.

 

Here a second match, with a link to the current hosts. The match of 14 may 1986 against West-Germany and in West Germany.

Between the mid-80s and the early-90s the animosity between Germany and 'Holland' (especially Holland) was at a peak. It is also visible in this 'friendly' match. I don't think it had quite that level before or since. Although in 1971 for example, the players Rinus Israel and Van Hanegem bullied Willy Lippens out of the national team squad because he was a German (in their eyes; perhaps also some other reasons but think this was the main one).

As remarked on the Maradona thread, Lothar Matthaus made some very nasty comments a few years later. It is fair to not repeat them here. I think many people can sometimes be too emotional and say things they shouldn't say (I can still become emotional on things related to Southern Germany and Israel). A younger Lothar Matthaus had Johan Cruijff as his child idol and example (if people don't believe this, I can prove). Sometimes people think I am anti-English, while if I say Bellingham has performed better than Vinicius I get accused of pro-Englishness and pro-European stances (not on this board but by people speaking to). Sometimes I do feel yes that certain circles don't really rate us (well, not the Italians in 1993 apparently), and I also feel the 'non big countries' get dismissed by default. Unless you are Cristiano Ronaldo.

Later on tensions eased a bit. Lothar Matthaus received an (unexpected) welcome in February 2000. The KNVB honored him with the second highest distinction, which is funnily the same rank as Cruijff. Matthaus actually appreciated this and didn't expect. Edgar Davids was captain on this occasion.



I don't know whether Matthaus is a good pundit, I've heard many don't think so, but Matthaus was also pretty positive here and said in the autumn of last year on Austrian television that Arjen Robben is in his eyes the best ever foreigner in the Bundesliga (he wasn't the only one). Also another remark, in addition, how "the very very best" players from 'Holland' have "something really special" around them (Robben is not from 'Holland' - Holland is indeed over-represented relative to population in squads). He mentioned Van Dijk and De Jong. I remember this and could search it back because there was a line somewhat similar to the famous one of Beckenbauer ("I won the World Cup, yet...")

His former national team manager as well:
https://www.thisisanfield.com/2020/...by-one-of-footballs-all-time-great-defenders/

So if people think the current tensions are high (you can get that feeling with for ex. Lukas Tank his "Klinsmann better than Van Basten"), it was worse at Gullit his prime. Voetbal International in 2017, later copied and amended by FourFourTwo, ranked Netzer higher than Gullit. It probably doesn't happen if you'd ask them in 1993.

The match

See the post above, which I'll not repeat again in full.

This was around Gullit his best phases (later in the video you can see his actual skills, the first part can be misleading).

My comments below are not based on these highlights (but some of the bits like "deserve in Mexico" can be heard).


West Germany was on their way to Mexico in 1986. Played in West Germany, an Austrian as referee (not Helmut Kohl). For Gullit it was one of the very last games in the season, maybe tired. He'd play two more Eredivisie games with nothing to play for.

One of the more famous scenes, often used in introductory compilations, is at 0:35. What I appreciate here is how West Germany was basically playing with their best team (Rummenigge the omission), while Netherlands as so often between 1980 and 1987, didn't. There was no Rijkaard and no Van Basten, just as lesser names like Van Tiggelen weren't there (Van Tiggelen was in the frame, yes). Gullit makes a good chance for the 3-2 at the very end.

It would be interesting to know what the Dutch match commentator makes of this. Was the idea that later developed already set in motion? The German match commentator is full of compliments and says Gullit is a phenomenon. He also says Netherlands deserves to be in Mexico and are "agile" and "slick". That might sound strange, but remember the Elo rank never slipped below 14th in those lean years and they narrowly lost out against semi-finalists (1982, 1986) and finalists (1984 - the Malta game). Fewer teams qualified in those days. Often many good players, also when playing abroad, did not play (now people as FDJ and Koopmeiners, to name two, are sorely missed, you can imagine how it was then). It was the days before the FIFA international calendar. For the earlier France game one can think of Arnold Mühren (an earlier free kick against France), of John Metgod (first goal here, Real Madrid vs Barcelona), or Jan Peters (Gazzetta grades here below). Captain Ruud Krol, then in USA and Italy, was sometimes not around either (not released by club). The 1986 qualification campaign saw four different national team managers - not really helpful. I don't say they would have the best team, for 1988 there is per SofaScore strong evidence for such idea, but more would have been possible for 1982, 1984 and 1986.

Doe eens een gok: het sterrenteam van seizoen 82-83, de topjaren van de Serie A. Wie scoorde er in @Gazzetta_it aan het eind van dat seizoen het hoogste puntenmiddelde? pic.twitter.com/rPXAAfAwR4

— Tijs Tummers (@tijstummers) April 12, 2019

I think those pre-1988 games, as mentioned and reasoned above, actually might help to appreciate him. @Wiliam Felipe Gracek also mentioned his Spain games I saw.

Again, hope this is appreciated and I certainly appreciate William his efforts (and mentioning of some games he liked), and yeah I have seen now you are a fan of the contribution to football and certain players. Also appreciate PDG of course.

 

Interesting that Football Manager exercise. Nice find. I wouldn't think Ramos, Carlos and Gerrard are in the top 10. They're are all over the place I can imagine (a Roberto Carlos beyond say 25 years old less so). Dirk Kuijt that high, with his distribution of attributes (not the level of the attributes) I am not so surprised of. But of course he was top assister at World Cups and scored goals in CL semi finals and final.

I think he had actually six surgeries on his knee and the ankle injury (of 1985) was inflicted by someone else. Some of the knee problems too (it has been scientifically proven referees are biased against tall and big players). It's admirable he still reached a very high level between 1991 and 1996 I think. As mentioned, his DBScalcio rating for 1992-93 is even higher as the season before. But I found some nice stuff in the newspaper archives of NRC Handelsblad (and no, that are not hagiographies).

You're onto something here. I guess he was pretty accurate and diverse when fit and feeling well. There are multiple examples of delicate lobs and chips, of subtle finishes, of bended free kicks etc. Even with his left foot (not as ambidextrous as his namesake Ruud Krol obviously). It is possibly something he had to work for and didn't come naturally to him while having been schooled as a central defender (originally). This maybe suffered when he wasn't fit (always? 50% of the time?).

It would be interesting to see the stats for 1987-88 if that is possible. I was surprised for the stats Vegan10 once showed for 1986-87. Maradona had 7 open play goals and over 120 shots in the league.

Of course not a finisher like say Romario at his best but you cannot have everything.