You might be right but remember that Canadian clubs revenues are in Canadian dollars and they pay in US dollars - it's very realistic that the clubs on the Canadian side are losing money. Also, contrarily to the US side - municipalities don't care about their struggles so no tax exemptions or benefits whatsoever. None of the 3 clubs owns their stadiums either.
Vancouver and Montreal just seem to be coasting along. The Forbes valuations of each club were above the MLS expansion fee in 2013 but are now below. The Whitecaps have had a bit of a windfall this season with the non-appearing Messi and the 50th anniversary celebrations, so let's see if they do something to build on it.
Sure, I agree. It makes total business sense to be losing $15M a year for the past 15 years and continue losing them for another 10 years or more. Which great business owner wouldn't want such a great deal in MLS? That's the entire reason they pay $500M to join MLS, just to keep on losing $15M a year. No sane person would want to join a league like CPL that makes a profit and or at least breaks even. Nah, making profits doesn't make you rich.
The Canadian clubs got in at a ridiculously low price. They are certainly pleased with the increase in value of their clubs knowing that if/when they ever cash-out they'll most likely recoup everything and most likely have a huge return plus keep getting those expansion cheques - not disputing that at all. I'm complimenting your league and the incredible growth. Reality is that the 3 clubs are in the league because there was no domestic leagues back then and they got in early at low price when the league was just starting to grow while. In a scenario where there'd still be no CPL, It's doubtful they'd pay $500M today to get in. At that price, might as well start something new with the CSA or buy yourself a European club like Bologna like Saputo ended up doing. As for no sane persons joining CPL, you're free to share why you feel that Atletico Madrid have no business-sense and what possess them to join this league. They could have spent the $500M to add an Atletico Detroit but opted for Ottawa for a fraction of the price. That doesn't make one model better than the other, it's just different and some will choose on - others will pick the option #2
Im glad the CPL is still around after the pandemic. However, I’m disappointed it’s stuck on 8 teams and some of those teams are having some serious difficulties. I’m disappointed we aren’t at 10 teams. Previous CPL brass continuously boasting about imminent expansion and then with nothing happening was a poor way to run a league. The CPL had been clear that a SSS or really good equivalent is required for a club. Unfortunately, unlike in other countries, those don’t exist in Canada. To acquire the land in any city in Canada is outrageously expensive given the run up in real estate prices over the last few years. Constructing a stadium on that already expensive land is absolutely bonkers from a financial standpoint for a league that only brings in a couple thousand fans for 6 months of the year. I believe the reason that all the discussions with the dozen or so potential ownership groups that the CPL commissioner always likes to bring up go nowhere is for that precise reason.
They don't hand out expansion checks to the owners. That would be like every time you bought a share in Apple every existing shareholder gets a check for $0.00000000001.
A few things went against the league -Pandemic in year 2 and being on lockdown. Year 1 was a great launch -Rushing the launch - York was clearly not ready, Ottawa wasn't sorted out, bringing in FC Edmonton was a mistake. In retrospect, had they waited there would be no leagues during the pandemic so a 2023 launch would have been more likely. Anyways, new commissioner Mark Noonan did the right thing by pulling the plug on Edmonton, found a strong buyer for York United and Vancouver FC expansion was done right. Management of expansion made it lose some credibility (Saskatoon and Windsor - you don't announce things unless it's done deal). Noonan said that unless all the requirements are met, no expansion or announcements. The "Kelowna game" was a good idea, best to test the markets before expanding. Anti-Labour/union- The former commissioner was a known anti-union/labour guy from the corporate world. While it's true we didn't know what to expect from the players, they outplayed their initial contracts. The league was too slow to adjust and it hurt them on the PR side. In comparison, Noonan is doing the opposite and recognize the player's union and talk to them MediaPro deal : I still believe accepting the deal was the only option at the time. The money and production value being offered upfront was significantly higher than what TSN/Sportsnet were offering. However, the league underestimated how far Bell & Rogers would go to destroy MediaPro and protect their monopoly - even the CRTC ruled that their actions broke some of the Canadian regulations. CPL was collateral damage as Bell & Rogers buried anything coming out from MediaPro which kept the league in the shadows. Noonan who's also president of CSB divorced MediaPro and will be back in control of the CPL, Canadian Championship and National Teams rights while buying some of MediaPro production assets. They will be able to deal directly with the broadcasters themselves which will drastically increase the overall visibility as of 2025. Those fixes will help get the expansion ball rolling again Yes, very true. Halifax is close to get their permanent stadium approved by the city. Just like the 3 MLS clubs who don't own the land and building, CPL will have to have their venue built the same way. York will be next in line and Woodbine Entertainment have set aside land for a stadium should the new owners choose to build there.
Indirectly or directly, they do give some (large) portion back to the owners. But it's a payment for the dilution of future shared cash flows. The Apple contract is now divided by 30, not 29, and so on -- so I would imagine a decent part of that goes back. But even at $500M, across 29 owners, that's less than $20M for giving up a % in perpetuity. That's probably an overpay, but the scarcity and resale price makes up the difference. MLS franchise values are mostly about that re-sale. Only so many tickets to the ball. And the Canadian teams understand the CPL is very unlikely to ever catch MLS in terms of size, payroll, quantity, etc. So while you could cash out now ... it's lowering the ceiling.
It's inaccurate to say that when an owner pays expansion fees in MLS, the money isn't divided among existing MLS teams?
No, I mean, that MLSE would sell TFC to an American ownership group who would move it and then MLSE would invest in a CPL team. I don't think that happens because the upside is significantly lower.
Not willingly and CPL denied their request to put TF2 in the league. Should Concacaf rules to continue exempting the 3 clubs from playing in a Canadian league due to being based in Canada then MLSE and Whitecaps would have a decision to make. Saputo would just sell and take his money to Bologna since he already moved his family there.
Do I really need to put *sarcasm* at my post so you can get the point? Everything you say makes no sense. If MLS Canadian teams are losing money (claiming $15M a year) for the past 15 years and will continue to do so for the next 10+ years, they would've gone out of business. Or sold their franchise and moved to CPL (which is very cheap) and make profits there. Or at minimum break even in CPL unlike MLS which is allegedly just "losing money". It's simple, they don't do it because they aren't losing money. Even the president of Liga MX, Mikel Arriola (which background is a politician and how to steal...I mean make money) said in a Mexican sports show he envy MLS and how much money they make. (He must know something, right?) He didn't mention SUM either. He specifically said MLS, their model at making money. Even Irarragori (owner of Atlas and Santos of Liga MX) was the one pushing for some type of merger with MLS because, and get this, claims MLS makes a lot in profits. That is a possibility, which is my point. If MLS is allegedly losing money for the past 2 decades and will continue to do so for another decade or two, if any owner wants to sell their franchise they can do so. In this case the Canadian teams, since they claim to lose money, can sell to US based owners, get their money and then join CPL. A CPL that Borden claims is making profits or breaking even at just 5 years old. How much would each of those MLS franchise go for? $400M-500M give or take? Take it and run all the way to the bank instead of "losing" $15M a year every year non-stop. You don't have to be a billionaire to figure out that the best business decision is to go to a league that makes profits (CPL) instead of staying in a league that has being losing money and will continue to lose money for more than 30 years (MLS). And before anyone takes this seriously....it's sarcasm. MLS isn't losing money, that's why no one is leaving.
You are making no sense at all. Skip your stupid sarcasm and try to make a clear point. Try doing it one at a time so you dont trip yourself up.
Quite the oversimplification. You're implying that MLS doing fine financially is the only reason no one is leaving, without considering other factors like contracts, market growth, and fan support. It's way more complex than this. All I was saying is that CPL operates on a smaller scale being 5 years old, that doesn't make it unsuccessful or doomed to fail just because it isn't MLS. Lastly, the 3 MLS did want to put clubs in CPL but the league said no and they chose to stay. I don't blame them and it makes sense. They are already invested in the league but that doesn't mean that CPL's business model made no sense to them, they were denied doing both at the same time for obvious reasons.
I said it plainly. MLS isn't losing money. I'll even say it in a language you are familiar with; MLS is an LLC. They report loses so they can get tax breaks. You understand that language now? Is that easier for you to understand or still having trouble? No business person will join a business that has being losing money for almost 20 years and is supposedly expected to keep on losing money for another 20 years. On top of that pay $300M-$500M to join an allegedly losing venture. No sane person will do that. They are definitely making money. Just use your common sense if you have some.
Should I start listing NHL clubs that lost their load of cash over the years or you're going to tell me that because the NHL is making money that makes the Phoenix Coyotes "claiming" they were losing money an exaggeration*? *That's despite having a revenue sharing mechanism where lucrative clubs subsidize struggling clubs** **Oh wait, there's no such thing as struggling clubs if the league is financially sound. Correct? Both statements (league being financially sound and a club struggling) can be true. Now Saputo not turning a profit doesn't mean he's losing sleep at night over it - that's the whole point of vetting ownership groups. Same applies to CPL, some clubs do well others not as well
Outsiders perspective on CPL. CPL is on much better footing today then it was when it launched. Which, is and isn't saying much when one considers that the launch of the CPL was rushed and not on nearly as good footing as the then leadership said. Covid without question put a serious dent in the CPL financially. The mere fact that the CPL has come out of the rushed launch and Covid lockdown into a place with new disciplined leadership and a better financial outlook is a miracle. IMO, the CPL is in a precarious spot. Not unlike MLS was 24 years ago. Their leadership rightfully understands that having their teams play in viable venues is important on so many levels. Fan experience at the games, and also equally important is the broadcast viewing experience. It's just one of the major hurdles that starting a league in the modern era of sports and broadcast media. There's a certain standard of experience that fans in Canada and the US expect when watching a professional league game either on TV/mobile device and/or attending in person. Fans are used to watching the CFL, NHL, MLB, Canadian Major Junior Hockey, the NFL, the NBA, etc. Yes it costs a lot of money, but it's not the 1970's anymore. One Soccer has a good presentation and good quality. That said, when you watch a game at Valour it doesn't look as good because the CFL stadium is 95% empty. Games from York United have the issue of the camera being facing the side of the field that doesn't have any stands. I get it, that's just the logistics of their current stadium situation. It still doesn't look ideal to the neutral viewer. Getting good venues for all expansion teams, and York United is paramount for the league to grow. Hopefully Canada can make a run in 2026 and captivate the nation. That uptick in interest will hopefully spur expansion, and more importantly move the needle to get some more stadiums built for said expansion teams. They don;t have to be 20K seaters either. If they can get stadiums that seat 5K to start, but have the ability to be expanded in the future as the need arises that would be a huge step in ensuring the continued growth and long term stability of the CPL. I still believe that it would benefit Canadian Soccer for the three MLS teams to have a working relationship with the CPL in some fashion. No doubt TFC and Vancouver were disrespectful towards the CPL when they wanted to enter their reserve teams into the comp. IF all three parties could come to an agreement, the three MLS teams could put U23 teams into the comp. Montreal Impact, Mapleleafs FC, and the 86ers. Toronto should be able to build a small stadium on the grounds of their training facility. Now, these three teams wouldn't be able to compete in the Canadian Championship or Concacaf competitions. They still would add to the CPL, and give more spots for young Canadians to get playing time. I fully realize that this will never happen.
Sure, you want to believe Saputo joined MLS to lose money every year then go for it. Or for that matter you want to believe, as much as they are vetting these potential owners, that they are willing to join MLS just to lose money, by all means go ahead. Billionaires just love to throw money away. It's how they stay rich, apparently.
In fairness MLS was in a much different place when Saputo agreed to join than it is today. His alternative choice back then was to stay in the NASL.
Like @jaykoz3 said, the Canadian clubs joined on what you guys would call 1.0 transitioning to 2.0. Anyone claiming that Messi and all those guys would be playing in MLS one day would have been laughed out of the room but here we are. Where MLSE is better equipped to keep up with where the league is going, Vancouver aren't and Montreal aren't willing deslite being able to follow since Bologna became Saputo's priority. As said previously, revenues in Canadian dollars while with expenses in USD means that it cost those teams even more to compete in this league in comparison to a similar US club. They can't go too cheap either or those stadiums will get empty. They don't own their stadiums or the land so they are limited with what they can do with their venues and surroundings. It's just not the same today as it was a decade again. Again if you could cool down, you'd realize that I'm complimenting how fast MLS has grown and that 2 out of the 3 clubs are struggling to follow this growth. Here they are, doing the best they can within what they are willing to spend but having to be careful to not spend too low or people will stop going or watching.
We can be here all day arguing about these poor billionaires but ultimately we want the same thing. We want these Canadian teams to join CPL and for MLS to get 3 extra US based clubs. Plus Montreal and Vancouver are two of several other owners that keep on refusing to move MLS forward. If they are too concerned about spending then CPL would fit them better as the salary cap for CPL is what...$1M?Perfect for them! But unfortunately they won't leave. MLS is stuck with those 2 ownership groups that are just there to collect a check.
Correct it's inaccurate. The new owners are buying a share in the league. It's not a franchise league like USL. As long as the cake keeps rising everyone gets a bigger and bigger slice. However the key to making money is timing. The league won't grow forever.
I his frustration is that the club was probably more profitable in USL and NASL. Between 2005 and 2011 they were averaging between 11,000 and 12,500 and he did everything right. New stadium, higher level of football, a Champions League final and qu'est-ce vous voulez? A winning team too? L'entitlement!
The MLS revenue and operating profits come from Forbes. They don't income things like stadium profits and other non soccer related income for individual clubs or the league. Even then, a $15 million loss at TFC is a drop in the bucket. Rogers' CEO made twice that last year and TFC are probably one of the teams telling MLS HQ to let them spend more. And most people who buy football teams don't expect to make money, at least in the short-term. EFL League One p&l in 2022/23 below. Only Exeter made money. Ipswich (in green) lost $18 million even after their previous owner wrote off £tens of millions in debt but their gamble paid off.