What is the problem with Canada?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by LouisianaViking07/09, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Time to change the title to "Is Canada becoming a Problem?"
     
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  2. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    CPL is needed to develop Canadian talent. We don't need MLS as they never do shit.

    CPL:

     
  3. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    ^ One of the strangest initiatives I’ve ever seen.
    I don’t understand the reasoning behind this.
     
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  4. Cubanlix63

    Cubanlix63 Member+

    AFC Ajax
    Feb 19, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Yeah it is not like it would lead into Pacific FC have a larger following in Mexico. They are not going to get people to drop their LIGA MX team for CPL. And any player they develop would immediately become too expensive for Pacific FC.
     
  5. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Back in March 2023 they launched this initiative with this private school - St. John’s Academy at Shawnigan Lake
    https://stjohnsacademy.ca/pacific-fc-and-st-johns-academy-launch-youth-soccer-academy/

    This reminds me of Sport-Etude in Quebec, the province I'm most familiar with a focus on sport. My childhood friend went to one of those schools for hockey and made midget AAA, the level below junior hockey before breaking his wrist.
    https://www.quebec.ca/education/pre...mes-sport-etudes/trouver-un-programme-reconnu

    This is already available to all Canadians on Vancouver Island, mainland and anywhere else. The Mexican angle would be on top of that not at the expense of Canadian players.

    What Pacific FC seems to be doing is expanding their reach to 6 Mexicans cities where they'd give the opportunity to some of those kids to fly to Victoria and play tournaments (not a bad thing), learn English and potentially even be admitted to that school full time.

    So I'm assuming that
    • Pacific aren't technically launching new academies from scratch but "acquiring" 6 existing local academies already on-site in those cities and rebranding them
    • Vancouver Island is most likely limited on football staff and expertise, acquiring it over there allows for bilateral exchanges to help develop their own (like York United and Monterrey deal where staff from Monterrey come to Toronto and teach good practices to York United staff and GTA coaches)
    This follows what other CPL club have been doing in partnering with existing academies and clubs instead of launching brand new local academies from the onset if they don't have the staff or expertise to develop players.
    • This could potentially be a path to permanent residency/citizenship* for those kids and their parents paid for by the club. If Pacific offer those opportunities, would parents really say no? (Of course, I'm talking for those not already in Liga MX system)
    *Take Jonathan David who grew up in Haiti but came at a young age to Canada. He chose us over Haiti and he's very attached to his roots.
    • It's not about developing Mexicans instead of Canadians, it's giving them the ability to do "both" and build ties in Mexico while expanding their brand.
    While this is thinking outside the box may very well be a long term long shot on the boys side, I see this paying dividend on the girls side very quickly. The NSL (Northern Super League https://www.nsl.ca/) is launching in 2025 and Canada would have plenty to offer Mexican girls with a potential clear path to Pro football + Citizenship & education. Pacific would become a direct pact to NSL via League 1 BC should they put a women club in D3, also good for business by selling talent. The women's pool here is massively underrated already, they'd be adding Mexican girls on top of it.

    I don't see this as a bad initiative at all
     
  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Lucas Cavallini is on fire at Puebla in Liga MX. He just scored his 4th goal in 4 games. We could have used this in Copa America - Marsch will be watching
     
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  7. CANPRO

    CANPRO Member+

    Dec 23, 2002
    I've beat this drum before, but I'll do it again now. The CPL was supposed to be the be shift that our u20 team needed to improve.

    We have 4 players from the CPL on the team for this qualifying tournament. Here are their minutes so far this season for their CPL clubs:

    -Tavio Ciccarelli - 0 minutes for HX Wanderers
    -James Cameron - lost his starting spot from last year and has about 400 minutes in 8 appearances his year.
    -Khadim Kane 7 appearances totaling 39 minutes (He played 519 mins last year)
    -Christian Greco-Taylor 4 appearances for 110 mins.

    Where is this going wrong????? Because for all the focus on youth that the CPL likes to talk about, I'm hard pressed to see any progress at a pretty important age group. MLS was a step too high, MLS2 was called a reserve league often played in front of small crowds with no pressure. CPL was supposed to be a middle ground where the young Canadian player could get real minutes at a decent level in a pro atmosphere with pressure. Yet our team is dominated by TFC2 and Whitecaps2 players.

    My local team (Valour FC) are hot garbage, in last place and have not a single u20 eligible player on their roster.

    Am I missing something about the stated aim of the league?
     
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  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I love David and I like Larin but Cavallini has always been wildly overrated. Big body that has no idea what he's doing.
     
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  9. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #7234 Robert Borden, Jul 20, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2024
    There is the U21 minimum minutes still in effect (2000 minutes) but they still have to earn their minutes - that hasn't changed. There needs to be a balance between developing younger players and the overall quality of the league so it can attract and sell. If you flood the league with 16-20 years old - no one would watch that and that's not CPL business model.

    CPL is only 6 years old and there are still some missing pieces to have the league be more impactful for the younger age group such as
    • Division 2 league which would put more emphasis on younger players and bridging the gap between League 1 Canada and CPL
    • Completed League 1 reform and expansion - Ontario is the furthest ahead with its Premier Division with pro/rel in term of level of play and young players.
    Reaching that balance will take time, there's quite the gap between CPL and League 1 Canada

    I'd say they had a significant impact on the U23 level - this was the strongest performance from a U23 CanMNT in a long while.

    Mind you that CPL is still one of the youngest leagues in Concacaf with an average of 24 years old (Liga MX is around 27 and MLS 26 i think). There's plenty of minutes being played but most are still older than 19 - This will take time.
    upload_2024-7-20_21-20-59.png

    That's because the CSA is too lazy to go check league 1 Ontario at the very least. I mean why would they, that league only produced guys like Buchanan, Larin, Johnston, Laryea and let's not forget that Ligue 1 Quebec gave us Kone, Bombito and Farsi. You should save some of that anger for the CSA picking players in the laziest fashion. Plenty of younger guys playing good football without the 3 MLS club branding to push them in the National team spotlight.

    This will change with the CPL driving League 1 Canada - the CSA will find it increasingly hard to ignore that pool

    Winnipeg's geography is putting them at a massive disadvantage. The academy network is poor in that province, what's lacking is "League 1 Prairies" combining Manitoba and Saskatchewan. This too will take time for Valour to have a good pool and the infrastructure to ID good players in the prairies. Until then, they will struggle to compete.
     
  10. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The old nemesis haunted Canada again last night at the CONCACAF U20 Championships.
    Honduras with a 94th minute equalizer to draw the game 2-2.

    Should still be in great shape to advance, but you really want to win the group to avoid a more challenging opponent in the do-or-die U20WC qualifying game. If they finish runner-up in the group, they could get somebody like Panama or Mexico in that contest.
     
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You assume:
    a. the players exist and
    b. they'd choose CPL over:
    i. a bigger club (in North America or Europe)
    ii. a college education
    iii. another pro sport
    iv. a career

    Young players are going to follow the chosen path of a David, Davies, Larin or Buchanan until a new, better one emerges.

    If you look at MLS, the majority of recruitment was via the draft until the minimum salary made it worth sacrificing a college education for a shot at becoming a pro.
     
  12. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    They do

    Europe, no - MLS, no if it's 1st club which is rare. MLS draftees and others eligible already have chosen CPL over MLS reserve teams for 1st club minutes. Besides, unless they come from one of the 3 MLS academies, the vast majority of players aren't even eligible to be drafted. That’s a lot of potential good players for whom it isn't even a choice they need to make, they'll sign in CPL if they get drafted or an offer.

    CPL has a mechanism that allows you to do both and report back to your university team when fall semester starts and still get paid to play in CPL and signing a contract.

    Larin and Buchanan had to move to the US to get drafted, David went straight to Europe, Davies was too good to ignore after he was referred from Edmonton

    Outside of theses cases, you underestimate how much harder it actually is for a family to just take off and move to the US or abroad for a shot at playing pro. Accessibility is crucial which is what CPL now provides through U-Sports, League 1 Canada and all those academies across the county. The next stars are way more likely to come through this new pathway going forward.
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If they were good enough they'd already be in the youth program.
     
  14. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    A better title would be "Don't we have a Canada forum? Why do we have this thread?"
     
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  15. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Short clip on why the pathway to pro should be handled by the CSA, CPL and League 1 Canada only
     
  16. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Are the 3 Canadian MLS teams stopping them from having a pathway to the pros for young players?
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the next 18 year-old Bombito or Larin gets the option to sacrifice college eligibility for US$22k a year in CPL. Hmm.
     
  18. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Same as the kids that sign MLNP deals.

    But why are we talking about it?

    There's zero reason to have a CPL development discussion in the USA Men's forum.
     
  19. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The clip does say that the system works in the US but the 3 teams haven't made it work here. If you look at their overall results in the past decade, it's been poor overall

    To Marsch's point, Bombito should been discovered earlier and played pro much earlier than he did.

    CPL has the mechanism to allow the next Bombito and Larin to play pro much younger without losing their university eligibility and get paid after playing in a League 1 - which they did.
     
  20. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Club America interested in Jacob Shaffelburg
     
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  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    18 years old goalkeeper Grégoire Swiderski is being scouted by several euro clubs including from La Liga. The keeper from Girondeaux de Bordeaux was excellent last weekend for U20 National team against Honduras.
     
  22. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    No relation to the Polish striker at Charlotte right?
     
  23. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Sure, I agree that MLS homegrown rules are stupid. But saying those 3 MLS clubs have been poor is just straight out lying. Most of the players CANMNT has are there because of MLS, or those 3 specific teams. Without them Canada would be years behind at NT level.

    I also agree that Canada can't depend on just 3 clubs but that's where CPL needs to step up and so far haven't done it. One of the CPL teams will be too busy wasting its resources and developing kids in Mexico. CPL outnumber those 3 MLS teams and they don't have to deal with the stupid MLS homegrown rules. They can easily set up shop at Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto. They can even go after their academy players if they want to. Nothing is stopping them. They just need to offer better options than what those 3 MLS teams offer. Make it worth it.
     
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  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Those horrible MLS clubs that have done nothing for Canadian soccer are paying Jesse Marsch's salary right?

    Its small minded to blame MLS club en bloc. If you go to any league in the world some clubs are focused on youth development, some are not. The same will happen in CPL.

    If you look at the US line up from the Copa, Ream, Weah, Adams, McKennie, Richards, Scally and Reyna played at 3 MLS clubs between them. Where were all the Timbers, Rapids and DC United graduates? Well those teams just weren't as focused on youth development.

    The other extreme and just as bad is the Man City method. You sign up every kid that shows a modicum of talent, run them into the ground, and for every hundred kids that are rejected and quit the game in disappointment you produce one Phil Foden.
     
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  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Since 2008, if we did a ratio of guys in those 3 clubs academies vs those getting first club minutes - their record would be bad, it's not a secret and everyone already know that. They've wasted lots of them while some got good only when they went on a US-based club. MLS is fine, the way those 3 clubs are handling development for the most part on this side of the border is nothing to brag about.

    The discussion was about the "academies". No one is arguing that playing in MLS doesn't have benefits but I disagree that having 3 clubs in a US-based league is necessary in the mediun or definately long term to ensure that good players keep playing in MLS.

    From the Copa America 26-man roster, the number of players from those 3 Canadian clubs academies
    • Jacob Shaffelburg - TFC pratically gave him away not knowing what to do with him. Jacob talks about "being in a dark place" before his trade
    • (Being generous here) Jacen Russell-Rowe but Columbus deserve full credit here - Toronto had no plan and no clue what to do with him
    • Theo Bair
    • Mathieu Choiniere
    • Ali Ahmed
    • Maxime Crepeau
    Those who I know we'll disagree with
    • Ismael Kone - He went to Europe on trial in Belgium and COVID forced to come back to Canada. He trained with the CF Montreal reserve team and they signed him. The developmental part - Ligue 1 CS Saint-Laurent & my former neighbourhood AS NDG full credit
    • Alphonso Davies - Most agree that he was MLS ready once he made it to Vancouver. Full credit to his Edmonton clubs
    This number would be higher if we included US academies, so my critic is aimed at those 3 specifically, not the US-based system

    This is only within 6 years and it took less than 3 to have senior call ups including making the 2022 World Cup roster.

    2022 World Cup roster with players who were in CPL
    • James Pantemis - Valour FC
    • Joel Waterman - Cavalry
    Other senior call ups
    • Jonathan Sirois - Valour FC
    • Dominick Zator - Cavalry & York United
    • Amer Didic - Atletico Ottawa
    • Marco Carducci - Cavalry
    • Tristan Borges - Forge FC
    U23 - defensively more
    5 CPL players on the team - contribution, defensively more sound

    U20 campaign
    6 CPL players - Stronger defensively and offensively, the fullbacks have been huge thus far
    • @CANPRO You were mentioning Tavio Ciccarelli from Halifax not playing this year but has 3 goals in 5 games. He's one of the youngest at 17 years old
    Reforming the division 3 and expanding it is a massive, complex and costly undertaking. It's simply inaccurate to state that CPL did not step up by creating League 1 Canada. Future stars will come from that pool of players and the infrastructure needs to be set up first

    Acquiring an existing operation and expertise they do not fully possess that could ultimately help them and the national team down the road. There's much they can learn about how things are done in Mexico while exposing their youth players to Mexican competition. It's not being done at the players on Vancouver Island's expanse where they've build new facilities for them.

    There's already players choosing CPL over the academies, the trend will only increase with clubs in Quebec and over time.
     

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